440s...

[dcasey10]

40hrs running time since I put the boat in and I think I lost an engine. I have read that many of you have had the 440s at some point or another in the older 31s. I am going to do a compression test on the engine tomorrow to get a better idea of what is going on but... my starboard engine is blowing lots of oil smoke out of the transom exhaust, at higher rpms lots of smoke, blue tint. In the engine box, at low rpms 600-1500 there is a fair bit of blow by coming out of the breather and pcv valve when i pulled that, then at 1500 and higher exhaust/smoke comes out from the breather, lots at higher rpms, enough to even blow the breather cap right off. Temp and oil pressure is good, oil is not milkshake and coolant is nice and green.

Does not look good.

any ideas? blown rings or a rod... good stuff

I did an oil change at the very end of the season last year and did another one today and double changed the filter. I also will note that even after fresh filters and oil the leaking oil is very dark looking burnt. I found a leak what looks like the back of the exhaust manifold on the bottom there is a tube from there running to the bottom of the engine.

[mike ohlstein]

Could be valve guides…..

[Navatech]

Could be blown rings... Could even be a dud piston that burned through...

I don't think it's a rod because a loose or thrown rod will make a hell of a racket... Hard to mis really...

[Pete Fallon]

DCasey,
Sounds like the rings are shot, I had 440's years ago nothing but head ache's, hard to find parts since Chrysler stopped making marine engines in 1986. Try Mack Boring in Rocky Hill, Conn. for parts. Also check for blocked oil passages on head and block and other thing to check is your raw water pump impellor.
Pete Fallon

[Carl]

DCasey,

I bought my boat 20 years ago with motors I had rebuilt for the prior steward, some six years earlier and he racked up 1200 hours in those 4 years. I ran boat for 15 years before ethanol and had very few issues with motors. Ran the boat thru the ethanol/resin years gumming motors up pretty bad, did a head job before we realized Resin/fuel mix was causing the issues...after tank was changed out and we started running fuel without resin, those motors came right back to life again, compression back to spec...not many other motors fared as well.
So while parts are hard to come by and the technology of the motors is old tech...I like them. Do a compression test and see if you can narrow down the possibilities. As Mike said...worn valve guide would be nice. But also a bad valve.

[Rawleigh]

I hadn't had much trouble with mine until I tried to race to a boat on fire on my first trip out in the Spring a couple of years ago. I managed to burn a hole through the top of a piston due to detonation from the old gas.

You did not specify that it has a miss. If it has a hole burned in a piston it will have a dead miss. My guess is a broken ring. These are pretty tough engines and I had zero problems until my self inflicted wound (I knew the gas was old).

My machine shop had no trouble buying a marine engine rebuild kit for it. Don't try and save money by buying a car kit from Summit or Jegs (ask me how I know!) Seems like it cost me @$3,500.00 and I did the removal and install myself in the water in a friend's boathouse.

[dcasey10]

Thanks guys for the imput. Compression was right around 130-135 on all cylinders except cylinder 3, pretty much zero compression. Spark plug was covered in oil, and the plug electrode was gone...

I noticed that the plug wire on the stb engine cylinder 3 kept coming loose from the plug wire last summer. I thought nothing of it but it should have been looked into more closely

I have a feeling that putting on new performance plugs and plugwires may have allowed the old gas to finally detonate in the cylinder after not firing for awhile.

So looks like a rebuild at this point?

I was wondering if rebuilding the 440 is worth the cost and effort taking the engines out and putting them back in? Also I found a pair of 440s that were apparently rebuilt, maybe worth having around for replacements or parts if keeping my 440s is the game plan?

[Pete Fallon]

Dan Casey,
I would check with Bob Gallahger at Port Marine in Beverly, I think he's still in business, about rebuilding Chryslers. He is on of the best engine surveyors and mechanics around. I had the 440's in my 31 express for 7 years and they were a constant problem, they were always giving me ignition problems, manifolds were changed 4 times in 7 years, I never got along with them and they stopped making marine engines in the mid 80's, parts were hard to find. When I first got the boat it had 413 Chrysler cross ram's with direct drive trannies, burned fuel like crazy(60 gallons to stellwagon and back) They had sat for almost 14 years without being run, the bearings had flat spots from sitting so long, I wasted thousands on rebuilding them the first year I had the boat, the next year I bought the pair of 440's brand new, I figured I would use all the old parts off of the 413's , that was a big mistake and I wasted alot of money trying to make old parts fit the newer engines.
If I were you I would look around for some Mercruiser's, either 454 7.4 L Blue water series either Throttle bodied fuel injected or multi-port injected, I had the throttle bodied 454's fuel and performace were had to beat . Also look for some Crusuader's basically the same Chevy GM big block engine. Look in Boats and Harbors( Yellow sheet) trade paper they have some really good buys on engines, you might even find a set of diesels in there. also check with Bob Lico in Long Island he has many contacts for engines. I am in Peabody now so give me a call 561-310-7179. I'll be here until next Wednesday then back to Florida for a week or so then back for good.
Pete Fallon

[Carl]

Old motors...a full rebuild?

Maybe before pulling motor...pull the head and have that checked out. Could be cracked or a bad valve...you also get a chance to look at cylinders and pistons for general condition. Takes an hour or so to pull a head depending on whether bolts cooperate.

I am not too sure I would go much deeper into keeping them alive. Tough call...but if it were me...I'd pull a head and use that information to help me weigh the options.

My .02

[Rawleigh]

Pete: My experience with them has been exactly opposite of yours. Mine have the same manifolds on them that came on the original 413's. The 413's were replaced in the 1980's with the last of the original marine 440's. No real problems until I burned the piston.

[dcasey10]

Time to do an IPO on my boat for some capital.

[Rawleigh]

As said, pull the head and do some investigating before jumping to conclusions.

[Navatech]

I STRONGLY support Carl's suggestion!... Before you pull the engine pull the head and have that checked out... Could be cracked or a bad valve... If it is something like that you'll be up and running without to much expense and work...

You also get a chance to look at cylinders and pistons for general condition... If it is only cylinder #3 look especially at the "step" (at the top of the cylinder - it will indicate the general wear)... If the general wear is not too bad you could consider doing only the one hole... Especially if you can do that without pulling the whole engine... It's not a great solution mechanically but it should keep you boating until the end of the season...

[dcasey10]

Starboard engine cylinder 3 has major damage. I am searching for a Starboard 440 or a set of used 454s or something. wonderful.

[John F.]

Sorry to hear. That sucks. Are you keeping the boat light or are you going to get her heavy--hardtop, chair, etc. If she's going to be light, I'd look into a set of 350 small blocks as well as 454s. Both are great motors.

[dcasey10]

"Boats come and go" Mike. But a good woman will stay.

[Dug]

I don't know... Ive been through about 4 women during time I've had the boat now that I think about it. Ones I was solid with at one time or another. Boat is still here... And I have had the boat over 15 years. I am now showing my age. Wow. So from where I stand, Mike is right.

And I have a perspective on the 440's but am going to spew it out later.

Suffice to say I have lived the nightmare. And I really want to know how you plan to use the boat before I weigh in. I am in MA.

Dug

[dcasey10]

Well it was just my parents 28th anniversary. In the 28 years my dad has been married he has had 30 boats, 13, 15, 17 whalers, 20, 26 shamrock, countless lymans, grady white 24, lake boats, mako 21, mako 23, lobster boats 32 holland among them, brownells, Tartan 37, the list goes on. One woman though so I had to give it to him.


I have spent the day calling around trying to come up with an option for my boat. Not really many options. A few boat yards said a proper engine rebuild will be at least 4k up to 7 just for the rebuild(not including yard fees to take engine out and in and storage for boat the few weeks. then I still have a old 440 with 1600 hours on it in the port side.

[dcasey10]

My boat I was hoping would be something I would bring back from neglect and could cruise around the north shore for a few years, just trying to enjoy the water. nothing crazy. I am planning on working in hopefully commercial real estate or some type of financial services. I am hopping that some day this will allow me to really restore this 1962 bert to yacht quality fit and finish. For now I am a broke kid.

I love my 31 and after all the sweat and money I put in and the amount of chemicals my body absorbed, I will have this boat for a long time. But there will be others too. I like to think that someday my bertram will be in pristine shape in a slip down in the BVIs, waiting for me to come down for a long weekend of fishing or a week of island hopping with some friends/family.

Dug maybe that gives you some insight

[John F.]

If you have the time and ability to pull the motor yourself, strip it, and bolt-on what you need to another motor, and you're broke, try calling some junkyards and see if you can find a 440. It'll get you by, and be cheap.

[Navatech]

Starboard engine cylinder 3 has major damage.

The cylinder itself or the piston?!...

[dcasey10]

NAV

The cylinder it self It must have blown the rings and that caused the scaring to the walls

[Navatech]

The cylinder it self It must have blown the rings and that caused the scaring to the walls

OK... If I understand you correctly the broken rings scored the cylinder... Two options here:

1) The engine has sleeved (wet or dry) cylinders... This is pretty much the norm for bigger diesels... Not that common in automotive engines... If this is your case you could decide to overhaul just one "hole"... New cylinder, piston and you're back on the water... This can often be done with the engine in place.... Unfortunately I believe these engines aren't sleeved...

2) The engine has the cylinders machined in the block... If you're lucky, the scoring is shallow enough to allow machining the block to the next standard oversize piston measurements... In any case, the block will have to come out of the boat... If you're unlucky, the scoring is deeper then what can be accommodated with an oversize piston... This means finding a new or used block to rebuild or finding a running take out... If neither is an option and assuming you have a good machine shop around your location a custom (dry) sleeve is an option...

[Dug]

It does. And I appreciate that a huge amount. I feel the same way about mine, and have since I bought her. I have had a smattering of other boats but Alchemy has been my constant.

First, anything I can do to help, please ask. I share your appreciation of the boat and have been through much of what you have. Plus I knew your boat under its previous owner, and respect both him, and you.

We used to have a member here, who passed a couple years ago now. It seems this is happening all to often, and my friend you (And I, kinda!) are of the new generation of owners for these boats. Uncle Vic was sage in his advice and dropped a few cherries over the years while here.

1) We are stewards. I am amazed that I own a boat that is 45 years old (Alchemy is a 1969) and that she is still plying the waters of NE and getting eyeballs (both tuna and peoples eyeballs!), stares, and compliments. Part of that is because I care for her as a child, but also because she is a solid well built boat who I can imagine lasting another 40-50 years. The idea of her in the BVI is a really compelling one! But we are supposed to leave the boat on this planet better than when we found her. ;)

2) The money is in the iron. Plain and simple, when I blew my port 440 engine, I had to make a choice. I had to repower for real, or I had effectively a 31' floating deck. So given how you say you plan to use the boat, here is what I would tell you. Take it or leave it. First, get rid of the 440's. When they run, they are awesome. They sound like a 1960's muscle car, and there are actually two so even better! I repowered my boat 3 times. twice with 440 Chryslers. Does that tell you anything? They are really hard to find parts for, and even harder to find a mechanic who isn't scared of them. Meaning "I have never seen those before...". When it is extra effort, it means extra cost. But if you have crappy power, you don't have as much of a good boat. And I mean good for you. Not anyone around you. Its not a keep up with the jones's, and you will always have people who tell you you should have done something different. Who cares. What works is what works for you, but the universal reality is that the money is really, truly in the iron. Not the electronics. Not the paint. The iron.

See if you can find a pair of take out 454's or 350's. Something reasonable that you can re-use the running gear. It will do the job. These boats are powered by all sorts of engines. You have done a BEAUTIFUL job of reclaiming your boat. She really looks great. I have been working on mine for 17 years and she is finally making quantum leaps for the appearance. I spent my early time wiring, plumbing, glassing, repowering...
Since you are not planning on running hundreds of miles to the canyons right now, don't bother with diesel. As I said, go find good running trustworthy engines that will allow you to enjoy and get to know your boat. They will give you time to dream up all sorts of projects to do, and also to figure out the long term power solution if you are not big picture happy with your temporary solution. Find a pair of engines that the owner taking them out is doing so because he/she wants diesel instead, or wants to go faster, but that there is truly nothing wrong with the actual engines. Don't find a set that have gone swimming or something along those lines. NO MATTER WHAT I CAN VIRTUALLY GUARANTEE YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY WITH 440'S LONG TERM.

Bite the bullet and find something reasonable but move on from the 440's. I don't dislike them. Its not personal. But years of struggle with my two pairs, and I finally had to move on. Save yourself the trouble and do it sooner rather than later.

Feel free to ring anytime. I'm pretty local and will help any way I can. Cell is 617-592-4834

Good luck! Been there,

Dug

[Carl]

I'll agree if you need to spend money rebuilding 440 motors or buying something newer for similar $$ I'd go with newer for sure. Even if it was more then a few bucks more I'd go with newer power.

That said, if you could find a block that checks out and you could swap your parts over for cheap money...I would not hesitate.

To answer Dugs question:
What does re-powering twice with 440's and having them blow in a very short amount of time tell me...it tells me there may have been an underlying issue not caught.
Leaking risers come to mind...
Or the rebuilder missed something.

That is based on 4 motors in two boats and thousands of hours of run time...before and after being rebuilt. All 4 motors were rebuilt in the very early 80's and ran well at the time...just the clocks had lots and lots of hours on them....plus a friend/customer needed some work over the winter and offered a good deal.


But Dug is also correct...parts are pricier and harder to find these days. If your mechanic is not familiar with them you could have an issue...although real simple motors. My mechanic knows them well and I grew up with them around...not much to them. The rebuilder had one issue that being the stupid rope seal.



440's are good motors...but their time has come and gone.
If running good...I'd leave em till you find a good deal. Not so much the case for you.

[STraenkle]

Just one question that seems to not have been asked, is your gas tank fiberglass???? I don't know that Ed ever changed it out.

[Dug]

Scott, that is a very good question.

[bobfioresi]

I have a pair of 440's that were taken out of my 31 that have sat for 3 years 1 turns and 1 is frozen they were rebuilt and have 1/2 hour on them I have many many extra parts. they are going to the junk man son 2 weeks as wife wants them gone.bob 631 668 4064

[Rawleigh]

Ther you go Casey! Call Bob. I still like my 440's.

[acarb]

40hrs running time since I put the boat in and I think I lost an engine. I have read that many of you have had the 440s at some point or another in the older 31s. I am going to do a compression test on the engine tomorrow to get a better idea of what is going on but... my starboard engine is blowing lots of oil smoke out of the transom exhaust, at higher rpms lots of smoke, blue tint. In the engine box, at low rpms 600-1500 there is a fair bit of blow by coming out of the breather and pcv valve when i pulled that, then at 1500 and higher exhaust/smoke comes out from the breather, lots at higher rpms, enough to even blow the breather cap right off. Temp and oil pressure is good, oil is not milkshake and coolant is nice and green.

Does not look good.

any ideas? blown rings or a rod... good stuff

I did an oil change at the very end of the season last year and did another one today and double changed the filter. I also will note that even after fresh filters and oil the leaking oil is very dark looking burnt. I found a leak what looks like the back of the exhaust manifold on the bottom there is a tube from there running to the bottom of the engine.

You have burnt a piston or broken ring(or both as one can lead to the other).

[acarb]

Oops, late to the party.