Gas Tank Question
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mikepelham
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Gas Tank Question
I am looking at a 71 Bertram 31 with glass tanks in CT. The guy says he has been running ethanol with no issues, is he full of it? Or are certain tanks ok, any thoughts?
Mike,
I'm sure others will add their own feelings, but there seems to be too many factors involved to say that ethanol will ruin all tanks. I've heard/read a lot of stories where some boats had issues after just one or two tanks of ethanol where others have been using it for 1 or 2 years without issue.
My personal feeling is that if you can keep water out of your fuel tank by using a non-ethanol based additive (i.e. Startron, etc...rather than dry gas which is just ethanol) and if you're careful about where you get your fuel you may be ok. I'm pretty sure that phase separation (where the alcohol in the ethanol separates out of the fuel) cannot occur if there's no water. Most of the boats that have had issues have been in the Long Island Sound area where no one had any idea that ethanol was coming and therefore did very little (if anything) to prepare for it. I mean how can you possibly prepare for something like ethanol if you don't even know you're pumping it into your tank?
Even up in Mass where the fuel docks knew it would be coming, not every marina did the necessary prep work of draining and cleaning their tanks. I have called every marina that I thought I would be filling up at this summer and stayed clear of any fuel dock that told me all they did was change their filters.
I am probably wrong, but so far I have not yet heard/read of anyone having a problem that:
1. Used most/all of the old MBTE fuel before getting their first load of ethanol.
2. Used a non-ethanol based additive to remove water and clean the tank prior to and while using ethanol.
3. Purchased ethanol from a marina that was known to have properely cleaned and prepped for ethanol.
The problem is that you may not know what the previous owner did to prepare.
I spoke with a gentleman from the NMMA back in June. His name is John McKnight. He told me that both the NMMA and the ABYC got the Coast Guard to agree to fund a study on ethanol effects on both aluminum and fiberglass tanks. They expect to get some results by the end of the summer.
Regards,
Doug L.
I'm sure others will add their own feelings, but there seems to be too many factors involved to say that ethanol will ruin all tanks. I've heard/read a lot of stories where some boats had issues after just one or two tanks of ethanol where others have been using it for 1 or 2 years without issue.
My personal feeling is that if you can keep water out of your fuel tank by using a non-ethanol based additive (i.e. Startron, etc...rather than dry gas which is just ethanol) and if you're careful about where you get your fuel you may be ok. I'm pretty sure that phase separation (where the alcohol in the ethanol separates out of the fuel) cannot occur if there's no water. Most of the boats that have had issues have been in the Long Island Sound area where no one had any idea that ethanol was coming and therefore did very little (if anything) to prepare for it. I mean how can you possibly prepare for something like ethanol if you don't even know you're pumping it into your tank?
Even up in Mass where the fuel docks knew it would be coming, not every marina did the necessary prep work of draining and cleaning their tanks. I have called every marina that I thought I would be filling up at this summer and stayed clear of any fuel dock that told me all they did was change their filters.
I am probably wrong, but so far I have not yet heard/read of anyone having a problem that:
1. Used most/all of the old MBTE fuel before getting their first load of ethanol.
2. Used a non-ethanol based additive to remove water and clean the tank prior to and while using ethanol.
3. Purchased ethanol from a marina that was known to have properely cleaned and prepped for ethanol.
The problem is that you may not know what the previous owner did to prepare.
I spoke with a gentleman from the NMMA back in June. His name is John McKnight. He told me that both the NMMA and the ABYC got the Coast Guard to agree to fund a study on ethanol effects on both aluminum and fiberglass tanks. They expect to get some results by the end of the summer.
Regards,
Doug L.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
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R Cahoon
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- Location: Falmouth "Cape Cod" MA.
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I am fortunate to be running on MBTE still, been able to buy the gas from people doing the tank change and wanting to start fresh with Ethanol.
Ethanol story, have a recent Honda lawnmower, nice running mower, started with ethanol in the spring, since then runs rough at idle. This weekend I run out of ethanol gas for the mower, started to go to the gas station, then thought, I have some non ethanol gas lets see. Had run the tank dry, put just a little MBTE gas in to finish the lawn. Started it up no change mowed for another 15 minutes put it to idle and as smooth as it use to be! Ethanol the Devils pi$$.
Keep Smilin
Ethanol story, have a recent Honda lawnmower, nice running mower, started with ethanol in the spring, since then runs rough at idle. This weekend I run out of ethanol gas for the mower, started to go to the gas station, then thought, I have some non ethanol gas lets see. Had run the tank dry, put just a little MBTE gas in to finish the lawn. Started it up no change mowed for another 15 minutes put it to idle and as smooth as it use to be! Ethanol the Devils pi$$.
Keep Smilin
my boat ran fine on ethanol for two years and then in 10 hours running developed the dreaded black goo.....at the very least pull a plug and see what it looks like....if its black...pull the carb....if its black on the bottom and the intake manifold is also.....boat is on the way to a hung valve if measures arent taken....randall
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In Memory Walter K
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its not worth the risk both my 3.0 liters shot craps last week after only 5 hrs on enthanol the fuel tanks were cleaned recently . i already changed the tank in the 31. the fuel in the filters looked like rootbeer . i used the boat for 5 hrs and changed the filters 3 times only to find it the 3rd time change your tank neil
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mikepelham
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Thanl You
All of your posts have been very helpful, Thank You very Much!
I spoke with a gentleman from the NMMA back in June. His name is John McKnight. He told me that both the NMMA and the ABYC got the Coast Guard to agree to fund a study on ethanol effects on both aluminum and fiberglass tanks. They expect to get some results by the end of the summer.
Regards,
Doug L
Doug,
I spoke to John early this year, he never mentioned that they were able to get the CG to fund a study, even after I asked if there was any way of getting them involved. All he said was that the manufacturers were vehomently against the addition of ethanol to our fuel supplies.
Harv
Ron,
I've gone through about 600 gallons. Knock on wood, so far so good. I was able to top off with one last tank load of MBTE back in May. I used Startron to try and eliminate any water/junk in my tank at that point. I also installed a second in-line fuel water sep when I installed my Flo-scans back in June. I ran the old stuff down to where I only had about 40 gallons of the old stuff left and filled with ethanol (still using Startron). Both the engines and gennie have run fine so far (although I am not running a fuel water sep to the gennie).
As I mentioned previously, I have only purchased fuel from marinas that drained and cleaned their tanks prior to receiving their first load of ethanol.
My boat is an 86 33. I've gotten mixed messages as to whether or not the year matters.
Regards,
Doug L.
I've gone through about 600 gallons. Knock on wood, so far so good. I was able to top off with one last tank load of MBTE back in May. I used Startron to try and eliminate any water/junk in my tank at that point. I also installed a second in-line fuel water sep when I installed my Flo-scans back in June. I ran the old stuff down to where I only had about 40 gallons of the old stuff left and filled with ethanol (still using Startron). Both the engines and gennie have run fine so far (although I am not running a fuel water sep to the gennie).
As I mentioned previously, I have only purchased fuel from marinas that drained and cleaned their tanks prior to receiving their first load of ethanol.
My boat is an 86 33. I've gotten mixed messages as to whether or not the year matters.
Regards,
Doug L.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
I ran and had problems soon as I put 30-40 gallons into a fairly emtpy tank.
I had been running for several years with it (ethanol blend) in small doses to top off the tank at the end of the year, maybe a bit rough starting and idle was off a bit, but it ran. We used it up here as a Winter Blend so I never really took much of it at the end of the year as all fishing was pretty close to harbour.
Point I am making, my boat ran great, till it abruptly stopped running.
Get the boat at a good price and expect to change out tank. A couple days and a few grand and you will be back in shape.
I had been running for several years with it (ethanol blend) in small doses to top off the tank at the end of the year, maybe a bit rough starting and idle was off a bit, but it ran. We used it up here as a Winter Blend so I never really took much of it at the end of the year as all fishing was pretty close to harbour.
Point I am making, my boat ran great, till it abruptly stopped running.
Get the boat at a good price and expect to change out tank. A couple days and a few grand and you will be back in shape.
Sim,
That's my point exactly. Why is it that once you started using nothing but ethanol you had problems right away but I (as well as others) have not after more than 600 gallons? It seems as though there must be some other variables we're missing.
I will say this though. My 2003 4 stroke 9.9 Nissan always started, ran, and idled great. Now that I've started using ethanol, its a little harder starting and it will not idle all the way down like it used to.
Regards,
Doug L.
That's my point exactly. Why is it that once you started using nothing but ethanol you had problems right away but I (as well as others) have not after more than 600 gallons? It seems as though there must be some other variables we're missing.
I will say this though. My 2003 4 stroke 9.9 Nissan always started, ran, and idled great. Now that I've started using ethanol, its a little harder starting and it will not idle all the way down like it used to.
Regards,
Doug L.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
These ancidotal stories about boats that did fine for awhile, and then abruptly developed problems has me thinking in the way of phase separation at the retailer's storage facility.
When phase separation happens the puddle on the bottom of the tank is basicly E-85. Most engines will start and run on it for awhile, so if the retailer isn't very vigalant about checking his tanks regularly AND using a special paste on the end of the sounding stick to detect trace amounts of water in the ethanol puddle, he might wind up pumping a bunch of this ersatz E-85 into people's tanks and not even know it.
Your boat, car, tractor, or mower will probably run on it until it eats something in the fuel system. And many fiberglass and ALUMINUM tanks that are just fine with E-10 won't stand up to E-20 much less E-85.
There is a widespread misconception about the way water reacts in ethanol fuel. It isn't like the old days where the water just sank to the bottom and it could be drawn off. Have a friendly talk with your local fuel supplier and find out if he knows about this problem. Ask if he sounds his tanks every single day, and if he uses the special paste stuff. If he says something like "Don't worry about it, I just put in some big water separating fuel filters.." walk away and buy your gas someplace else. Water separating fuel filters mostly don't work with E-gas because the water is actually mixed with the ethanol, not sitting in a puddle at the bottom like the old days.
On a little different angle. There seem to be two large catagories off fiberglass tanks out there...ones that were likely made on a female mold and have gelcoated exteriors, raw glass on the inside, and others that were probably made on a male mold and have the gelcoat on the inside.
The type that have raw glass on the inside likely suffered from air inhibition during layup causing incomplete cross linking of he polymers in the resin on the inside of the tank. It is just my opinion, but I believe these tanks are more suscecptible to degradation from ethanol. If the boat you are looking at has a tank like this I would definately count on changing it, and soon.
If it has a tank with the gelcoat on the inside, then the inside surface would have been against the mold as the resin cured, avoiding air inhibition. With oone of these tanks the answer to whether or not it is servicable in the long term is still a big question.
Peter
When phase separation happens the puddle on the bottom of the tank is basicly E-85. Most engines will start and run on it for awhile, so if the retailer isn't very vigalant about checking his tanks regularly AND using a special paste on the end of the sounding stick to detect trace amounts of water in the ethanol puddle, he might wind up pumping a bunch of this ersatz E-85 into people's tanks and not even know it.
Your boat, car, tractor, or mower will probably run on it until it eats something in the fuel system. And many fiberglass and ALUMINUM tanks that are just fine with E-10 won't stand up to E-20 much less E-85.
There is a widespread misconception about the way water reacts in ethanol fuel. It isn't like the old days where the water just sank to the bottom and it could be drawn off. Have a friendly talk with your local fuel supplier and find out if he knows about this problem. Ask if he sounds his tanks every single day, and if he uses the special paste stuff. If he says something like "Don't worry about it, I just put in some big water separating fuel filters.." walk away and buy your gas someplace else. Water separating fuel filters mostly don't work with E-gas because the water is actually mixed with the ethanol, not sitting in a puddle at the bottom like the old days.
On a little different angle. There seem to be two large catagories off fiberglass tanks out there...ones that were likely made on a female mold and have gelcoated exteriors, raw glass on the inside, and others that were probably made on a male mold and have the gelcoat on the inside.
The type that have raw glass on the inside likely suffered from air inhibition during layup causing incomplete cross linking of he polymers in the resin on the inside of the tank. It is just my opinion, but I believe these tanks are more suscecptible to degradation from ethanol. If the boat you are looking at has a tank like this I would definately count on changing it, and soon.
If it has a tank with the gelcoat on the inside, then the inside surface would have been against the mold as the resin cured, avoiding air inhibition. With oone of these tanks the answer to whether or not it is servicable in the long term is still a big question.
Peter
Peter,
Good points. I'm also wondering about when/where the ethanol actually gets mixed in. I know the ethanol can't be shipped in the gas and must be mixed in at a later point. How can we be sure that its only getting 10% alcohol and not 15, 20, or more?
My theory has always been to keep water out of your tank at all costs, but if you're pumping in gas that's already got a higher % you could be screwed either way.
Unfortunately, this whole mess is not an exact science and we're the ones getting stuck doing the experimenting.
Good points. I'm also wondering about when/where the ethanol actually gets mixed in. I know the ethanol can't be shipped in the gas and must be mixed in at a later point. How can we be sure that its only getting 10% alcohol and not 15, 20, or more?
My theory has always been to keep water out of your tank at all costs, but if you're pumping in gas that's already got a higher % you could be screwed either way.
Unfortunately, this whole mess is not an exact science and we're the ones getting stuck doing the experimenting.
Regards,
Doug L.
Doug L.
It seems as though there are lots of different situations but here is mine. 86 33sf, new fuel injection gas engines (120 hours) have had three fill ups with ethanlol this summer (probably 800 gals total) , changed filters. Racor on the generator fully clogged and stopped the genny. Mercs have an integral fuel system with fuel cooler and filter built in. Both had brownish residue (root beer) but ran well. Able to reach WOT no problem, no change in cruise (3300 rpm). I will change the filters again after labor day. Each time I fill up i phsically check the fill hose to see if there are leaks, none found. I visually check the tank as best I can to find signs of leaks or seepage, none yet. I plan to leave the tank close to empty the winter.
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R Cahoon
- Senior Member
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Well, we have changed out 9 tanks, some with and some with out gelcoat inside, the gelcoated ones almost looked new inside, none had structual failure.
Water levels in underground tanks, our supplier and additional info states look for water 18" or higher virses the old way of at the bottom.
We suggest K-100. We did a test with Startron and K-100. We took two glass jars added ethanol gas added 10% water, Startron in one K-100 in the other, shake and let sit for one hour. The Startron separated, the K-100 did not, it was one color, then we took oil diapers with the Startron no absorbtion, the K-100 was all sucked up. In addition the Startron would not ignite and the K-100 did. Case closed.
State Fire Marshalls rules that boats need to be stored with full tanks, which we all know makes sense, but how do we best deal with Ethanol through the winter?
Keep Smilin
Water levels in underground tanks, our supplier and additional info states look for water 18" or higher virses the old way of at the bottom.
We suggest K-100. We did a test with Startron and K-100. We took two glass jars added ethanol gas added 10% water, Startron in one K-100 in the other, shake and let sit for one hour. The Startron separated, the K-100 did not, it was one color, then we took oil diapers with the Startron no absorbtion, the K-100 was all sucked up. In addition the Startron would not ignite and the K-100 did. Case closed.
State Fire Marshalls rules that boats need to be stored with full tanks, which we all know makes sense, but how do we best deal with Ethanol through the winter?
Keep Smilin
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Stuart Cooperrider
- Senior Member
- Posts: 83
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 15:07
- Location: Cape Cod
Ron,
From your post I'm not sure what you're recommendation is for people who's tanks are gelcoated inside. What's your opinion? Also, I don't know what K-100 actually is or where it's available. What's the mix ratio?
I'm still running on last year's good fuel but have to make a decision as the season winds down here on the Cape. I'll be in touch regarding your installation recommendation. Your Oyster "Robbers" Marine reference was very funny. Thanks.
-stu
From your post I'm not sure what you're recommendation is for people who's tanks are gelcoated inside. What's your opinion? Also, I don't know what K-100 actually is or where it's available. What's the mix ratio?
I'm still running on last year's good fuel but have to make a decision as the season winds down here on the Cape. I'll be in touch regarding your installation recommendation. Your Oyster "Robbers" Marine reference was very funny. Thanks.
-stu
Bob S
I drained the very last of my NON ETHANOL fuel out of my tank a while back in preperation for E-gas. There were root beer dregs in the bottom, much like what you describe. I thought it was water. I let the gas evaporate off over a few days, and what was left was definatley NOT water.
It was an oily residue, about a quart of it in the bottom of a 120 gallon tank. It looks like flat root beer, and smells awful. It does not evaporate, at least not quickly.
This was NON ETHANOL gas....I think the stuff is just 30 some years of old residue and varnish, but every Chicken LIttle who sees it thinks it is proof positive that their tank is melting. But it can't be because in my tank there was never any ethanol fuel.
I put some in a jar and added more gas and ethanol. The stuff still sat on the bottom of the jar like water did in old gasoline. I shook it up...it settles out in seconds.
Part of our problem in the change from old gas to E-gas is that we are all (wisely) running our tanks a lot lower before refueling. Could it be we are sucking up old dregs of thirty years, and nothing more sinister than that?
BTW a local freindly mechanic was showing me "Water in the fuel" of a boat that had experienced troubles. He had a little in a jar. He pointed to the rest in a bunch of containers and buckets he had used to hold the fuel as he drained the tank. It was the root beer stuff. I tried to explain to him that if the boat had a tank full of ethanol gas contaminated by water, that the water/ethanol puddle in the bottom of the tank would be much bigger than the few ounces of dregs he was showing me. He couldn't get his head around that until I showed him my jar with the dregs in it, and told him about my bucket with a quart of varnish in the bottom.
We all need to adjust our thinking about water in the gas. It ai'nt like the old days. With Ethanol there is either nothing at all, or a big puddle (7.5% to 8% of the capacity of your tank) in the bottom.
If you see a little trace puddle in a sample of your gas, it isn't water. It is the root beer crap, and it probably didn't come from the ethanol.
If you drain off a couple of gallons of stuff that smells like vodka and is clear, that is E-84 ethanol-water from phase separation. It is bad for your fuel system, and the gas that is left isn't any good either.
Peter
I drained the very last of my NON ETHANOL fuel out of my tank a while back in preperation for E-gas. There were root beer dregs in the bottom, much like what you describe. I thought it was water. I let the gas evaporate off over a few days, and what was left was definatley NOT water.
It was an oily residue, about a quart of it in the bottom of a 120 gallon tank. It looks like flat root beer, and smells awful. It does not evaporate, at least not quickly.
This was NON ETHANOL gas....I think the stuff is just 30 some years of old residue and varnish, but every Chicken LIttle who sees it thinks it is proof positive that their tank is melting. But it can't be because in my tank there was never any ethanol fuel.
I put some in a jar and added more gas and ethanol. The stuff still sat on the bottom of the jar like water did in old gasoline. I shook it up...it settles out in seconds.
Part of our problem in the change from old gas to E-gas is that we are all (wisely) running our tanks a lot lower before refueling. Could it be we are sucking up old dregs of thirty years, and nothing more sinister than that?
BTW a local freindly mechanic was showing me "Water in the fuel" of a boat that had experienced troubles. He had a little in a jar. He pointed to the rest in a bunch of containers and buckets he had used to hold the fuel as he drained the tank. It was the root beer stuff. I tried to explain to him that if the boat had a tank full of ethanol gas contaminated by water, that the water/ethanol puddle in the bottom of the tank would be much bigger than the few ounces of dregs he was showing me. He couldn't get his head around that until I showed him my jar with the dregs in it, and told him about my bucket with a quart of varnish in the bottom.
We all need to adjust our thinking about water in the gas. It ai'nt like the old days. With Ethanol there is either nothing at all, or a big puddle (7.5% to 8% of the capacity of your tank) in the bottom.
If you see a little trace puddle in a sample of your gas, it isn't water. It is the root beer crap, and it probably didn't come from the ethanol.
If you drain off a couple of gallons of stuff that smells like vodka and is clear, that is E-84 ethanol-water from phase separation. It is bad for your fuel system, and the gas that is left isn't any good either.
Peter
I'll bet somebody will try it sooner or later!
BUT the interesting part is that if you add enough high proof vodka back into the remaining gas it will be OK. That makes a good excuse to keep a couple of bottles on board at all times....and of course you might want to test and rotate the stock to assure it is fresh.
BUT the interesting part is that if you add enough high proof vodka back into the remaining gas it will be OK. That makes a good excuse to keep a couple of bottles on board at all times....and of course you might want to test and rotate the stock to assure it is fresh.
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In Memory Walter K
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Ron,
The root beer I had seemed to be small particulates that mixed quite easily and did not settle out quickly. I left the jar a few days and they settled. My earlier filter change was after very little running, mostly in the bay. not much. THe latest change that I described was after a nasty 4 hour run outside the cape from Nantucket to P town in 4-6 footers that shook everthing up preatty good. Again other than shutting down the genny, everything continued to run OK. Genny is back up and fine now with new filter.
The root beer I had seemed to be small particulates that mixed quite easily and did not settle out quickly. I left the jar a few days and they settled. My earlier filter change was after very little running, mostly in the bay. not much. THe latest change that I described was after a nasty 4 hour run outside the cape from Nantucket to P town in 4-6 footers that shook everthing up preatty good. Again other than shutting down the genny, everything continued to run OK. Genny is back up and fine now with new filter.
It is quite possible when I got some E-Fuel on my empty tank several years back and developed immediate problems it was bad gas (Phase Seperated).
The marina had just changed hands and new tanks where put in. All fuel was E-Fuel and the Marina did and does have a problem with water in the tank. I also had a non-gelcoated inside. I am thinking I got some higher concentration of ethanol and it did a quick job on my tank.
The marina had just changed hands and new tanks where put in. All fuel was E-Fuel and the Marina did and does have a problem with water in the tank. I also had a non-gelcoated inside. I am thinking I got some higher concentration of ethanol and it did a quick job on my tank.
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