bertram31.com

In a nutshell what seas will a Bertram handle without compromising it's capability in rough seas on a stern parachute drifting in your opinion.

Tell me about stability in a mixed sea and swells coming over the transom swamping or not etc.

The area i like to target off point conception 60 plus miles out of Santa Barbra is a volatile area rarely calm moderate seas.

i usually target between storms in my 24' Skip jack and try and go when it's under 20-25 knots 30 gust but have stuck it out in 24' seas 34 knots sustained.

I do not take anyone they usually all fold to fear in the elements and i do not want to be responsible for their safety.

Tell me about your experience with a 31-B as one of my reasons for getting the larger boat was to increase my time on the water.

PZZ676-070415-
OUTER WATERS FROM SANTA CRUZ ISLAND TO SAN CLEMENTE ISLAND TO 60 NM
OFFSHORE INCLUDING SAN NICOLAS AND SANTA BARBARA ISLANDS-
229 PM PDT SAT APR 6 2013

GALE WARNING IN EFFECT THROUGH LATE MONDAY NIGHT


TONIGHT
NW WINDS 25 TO 30 KT WITH GUSTS TO 40 KT. COMBINED SEAS
8 TO 11 FT DOMINANT PERIOD 7 SECONDS. PATCHY FOG AFTER MIDNIGHT.

SUN
NW WINDS 20 TO 30 KT WITH LOCAL GUSTS TO 40 KT. STRONGEST NW
OF SAN NICOLAS ISLAND. COMBINED SEAS 8 TO 11 FT DOMINANT PERIOD
7 SECONDS. PATCHY FOG IN THE MORNING.

SUN NIGHT
NW WINDS 25 TO 30 KT...BECOMING 30 TO 35 KT AFTER
MIDNIGHT. GUSTS TO 45 KT. COMBINED SEAS 10 TO 13 FT DOMINANT PERIOD
7 SECONDS.

MON
NW WINDS 30 TO 40 KT WITH LOCAL GUSTS TO 50 KT. COMBINED SEAS
12 TO 15 FT DOMINANT PERIOD 6 SECONDS.

MON NIGHT
NW WINDS 30 TO 40 KT WITH LOCAL GUSTS TO 50
KT...BECOMING 25 TO 30 KT WITH GUSTS TO 40 KT AFTER MIDNIGHT.
COMBINED SEAS 14 TO 17 FT DOMINANT PERIOD 6 SECONDS...SUBSIDING TO
12 TO 15 FT DOMINANT PERIOD 8 SECONDS AFTER MIDNIGHT.

TUE
NW WINDS 25 TO 30 KT WITH GUSTS TO 40 KT...BECOMING 10 TO
20 KT WITH GUSTS TO 25 KT IN THE AFTERNOON. COMBINED SEAS 9 TO 12 FT
DOMINANT PERIOD 9 SECONDS...SUBSIDING TO 7 TO 10 FT DOMINANT PERIOD
9 SECONDS IN THE AFTERNOON. PERIOD 9 SECONDS.

TUE NIGHT
NW WINDS 20 TO 25 KT WITH GUSTS TO 30 KT...BECOMING N
10 TO 20 KT WITH GUSTS TO 25 KT AFTER MIDNIGHT. COMBINED SEAS 7 TO
10 FT...SUBSIDING TO 6 TO 8 FT AFTER MIDNIGHT.

WED
NW WINDS 10 TO 20 KT. WIND WAVES 2 TO 3 FT. W SWELL 6 TO
8 FT.

THU
NW WINDS 15 TO 25 KT. COMBINED SEAS 7 TO 9 FT.

I feel completely safe and at ease in 12 to 14 footers at the stern (following sea) while moving at the speed of the waves or hold her into the same seas with engines running just holding her directly at a slight angle without moving forward While they fish out of cockpit .the only problem is you must stay on bridge and cannot leave unmanned so the pilot is out of the fishing seen which could be a problem when handling tuna,swordfish , big eye.i have held her into the wind numerous times in gale warnings and the guys in the cockpit were very coftable a couple of miles offshore for migrating bass.i am making this post with quite a bit of Reserve this is not for novice you cannot go beam sea even for a minute! The boat has perfect balance and with three man in cockpit will be totally bow proud into the weather.

i'm pretty familiar with the area. it can certainly get "sporty". the short answer is the boat can take more than you can. take bob's advice and maybe brewster will chime in. around there i was always more afraid of the shipping lanes than the ocean. (small sail boat)

Keith,
Totally agree with Mr. Lico on the following sea performance of the 31, stern parachute I won't comment on, Brewster has had the most drifting experience at night in the canyons off the north east, we have talked quite a bit about a parachute off the starboard quarter/nose, he also is chunking and can flip the chute to go fight a fish, he mentioned he keeps the parachute close to aide in release and not to get fouled up in your running gear. I will let him chime in on this one, I have some time in rough weather but not on my 31, not yet anyhow...soon. BH

Bob I should add additional information.when I take Phoenix out under these conditions especially 60mph plus gust of winds in gale warnings anchoring or anchor retrevial is out of the question so I hold the boat in place in Lue of a anchor as indicated in above post .we are casting into moving bunker schools with the benefit of no other boats able to go out of inlet. With the captains rudder the boat is able to rotate in it's own a axis so if 49 waves come at you there always that odd wave from differant angle you can adjust the boat to navigate correctly normally harsh weather causes the waves to crest instead of giant rollers needless to say you cannot have one crest on top of you with a soft top I rather have your rig in a cresting wave situation.

Keith: Berts..Gonna ba bit different than the skippy..my sons got a skipjack diesel 24 ft flybridge...we call it the tippy skippy . tonights gonna be howlin!! ..

Ironman wrote:Keith: Berts..Gonna ba bit different than the skippy..my sons got a skipjack diesel 24 ft flybridge...we call it the tippy skippy . tonights gonna be howlin!! ..

I use to buddy boat with a friend with a deep V skip jack and he rocked all over the place compared to mine that is a shallow V but he could cut the chop better than i could.

What kind of fuel economy is he getting ?

Thanks guys appreciated.

I do not have a problem when I'm in the helm i can keep her straight and if i did loose power the parachute will keep the skipjack straight as she would never survive being sideways for a moment.

When I'm out drifting alone 3-5 knots in the weather on the parachute stern to the swells alone on deck motor off fighting fish chumming on the skip jack i have to leave when the swells start coming in over the transom swamping the boat it becomes to dangerous.

The skip jack use to be OK in heavy weather when i was much lighter with a small block motor and one fuel tank and a lot less gear she would lift a lot sooner and not get swamped.

My fishing intentions are the same for the B-31' and that is my primary concern is how well she will respond lifting if i do not over load her and how stable is she drifting transom to the swells in heavy seas with a mixed swell wind etc.

When i used the Z-wings off the out riggers on the skipjack it helped a lot with the stability and i will try them with the B-31.

Narrowing it down my primary question is how well will she respond rising preventing swells from coming over the transom swamping the boat with the transom to the seas on the drift motors off drifting parachute out to keep her drifting straight.

Setting the parachute farther back helps allow the transom to rise.

So much to learn.

Keith,
Only three things to add...

Boat can take alot more then I can handle.

Boat and me don't like going beam to sea...mostly me and everything not tied down inside boat.


My boat had a nasty tendency to ingest more water then it let out of the scuppers at anchor or drifting in seas. Stern went down... water come in Stern scuppers, that back pocket filled up, stern rose and water flowed into cockpit and/or over the walls into bilge. Stern went down water rushed back to scuppers filling pocket from one side as sea filled from other side....stern was a little pump working the wrong way. I was told my floor was lower then later models...so maybe that was the problem for me. My temporary fix was shoving towels in scuppers...then alot of trial and error with different scupper materials and finally placing secondary scuppers on inside the cockpit wall of that teak transom bracket....now poly bracket as I put in new deck.

Thank you Carl


























Current location of the white sharks we tagged August 17 shark week.
Also available on phone app.

Is that an Asian Terrorist under that mask!!! LOL! Fight the itch!!

Keith be careful that's not a self bailing floor.parachute out stern in gale warning normally big wave swamp you then second runs down into cabin-----------you have one big set of balls or a death wish!

Keith

Bertram or not, I always learned, don't let that stern run into the seas if they are too big. The stern rises fine, but there is always that one wave. Plus you do it alone. Keith you are a better man than I.

Listen to these guys, the boat doesn't matter even the best can get beat by one wave.

Keith.. My son burns 20 gal ...round trip catalina.. Newport.
my Hawiian friend told me always turn on the bow bilge pump during a big marlin fight ..for that wave that comes ova the transom into the cabin.. when your busy!.. Wayne

bob lico wrote:Keith be careful that's not a self bailing floor.parachute out stern in gale warning normally big wave swamp you then second runs down into cabin-----------you have one big set of balls or a death wish!

Bob, wouldn't it be self bailing if entire floor was raised and pitched to flow back?


One hand tells me well between motors should be dammed so as not to allow water in...other hand tells me you need a way to let water out and a dam could work against you. Third hand tells me don't go out on those days...and don't even think about going stern to. Fourth hand says yo didn't ask for an opinion on that matter so I'll mind my own business



Keith...my comments were with pointy end of my boat into seas.

I had thought about installing a dam between the engine boxes at the edge of the cockpit by making a slide in "hatch board" like sailboats use in their companion way. But now with a family I don't go out in the big water so it doesn't matter!!

Crash Valves. Crash Valves. Crash Valves. Crash Valves. Crash Valves.

Hey Mike:

Are you implying Crash Valves?

Tom

Nope.

Crash Valves.

For the record I think you're insane!

Keith, Deck on my 31 has a 6" step up at the engine boxes, that should keep some of a monster wave from making a b line into the cabin, if the pit gets flooded I can put her in gear and open the tuna gate and dump a few thousand gallons pretty quick. Hope I never have to find out..BH

i had crash valves but never had to use em. i did have over a foot of water in the bilge when i blew a raw water hose. two 2500 GPH pumps emptied her pretty fast. another time a neighbor's bertram was pretty flooded at the dock after a hurricane. (i get there is a huge difference between at the dock and 50 out in 10+). i was surprised how much water she would hold and not sink. i pumped it with a sump pump.

The parachute (drogue) should be set from the bow for all the reasons you are trying to solve.

Not a fan of crash valves. As someone who likes to be able to control my situation alone, crash valves take two people. One to operate the boat, the other to monitor water level and open and close valves as needed to prevent pump damage and engine failure.

I much prefer a seperate pump driven with a dual pulley electric clutch that can be controlled manually and/or a high level float switch leaving the operator to concentrate on either fierce seas or the disaster at hand.


Anything manually operated takes away focus on the problem at hand.

bruce....i gave exactly that a lot of thought when i built my crash valve system. so i made them as easy to use as possible. to me the deciding factor was can you stop the water from coming in? if you can its the big bilge pumps. if you can't...like a hole or broken off running gear i figured i could match engine revs to water flow.(using one engine to pump) glad i never got to find out. i do know a guy out alone at night who hit a log and holed the bottom. he detached a raw water intake hose, put it in the bilge, and ran home running his boat up on the launching ramp. not pretty but he saved the boat.

I vote for Walter! Brothers it does not take to much of a wave to go over with her ass pin down! Second wave goes in the cabin .you have three seconds to cut that parachute free, run to the bridge ,fire her up and get out of dodge before next wave forget crash valves transom is now level with waterline you must move forward to get that water out the scuppers and in my case 5 bilge pumps roaring once out of harms way you can think about crash valves while going forward into the waves.best idea is Walter's -----------prevention!

The "Bad Company"(I think a 60ft Viking ..brand new). calm seas I hear.. hit a whale ..holed the bow area. They detached the generator intake up in that area & saved the boat.. almost a total loss.. few years ago. I got some pics somewhere ..
Wayne

Keith

To put this in perspective:

You asked and the gang answered. Not pretty, but good advice. Of course you don't need to listen to us, but you would get the same advice from anyone with boating knowledge. The boat does not make the difference in this case. Bob is right, first one hits, floods the cockpit, second one, it is pretty much over, the third finishs what the second one did not.

Plus you are chumming for sharks, and might have to enter the water, not by choice.

Please take all the comments very serioiusly and also from a group that cares about each other even though we may not have met. Basically for a lot of us, we are really strangers, conected by this board and Capt. Pat. I have seen guys on this board reach out to help others they have never personally met.

This is truly an amazing place.

Thank you Walter

The whole idea of the larger boat was to gain more fishing time and that will be done alone on the parachute or sand gravel bag off the stern.


I'll figure out her limitations as soon as i get her out.





There are currently three bilge pumps.





i have done some salvages with airbags and pumps with sea tow boats and planes.

The air bags store laying flat, i always thought it would be a good idea to keep a half a dozen on board and a air compressor just tie them from side to side slip the line under the hull for an emergency.






I'm going to work on the 31-B all day tomorrow and install the motor beds and exhaust i finally found all the SS fasteners then the next weather window I'm going to take the skip jack out and i will see if i can make a video of the Z-wings used as stabilizers and the sand gravel bag-parachute.

The idea of the Z-wings is to create stability for safety.





I'm going to be installing some stern davits perhaps i can figure out a way to install a removable piece to raise the transom height a few feet with acrylic to keep some of the waves out to help prevent swamping.

Hey it's a lot of fun to experment sometimes i learn useful things nothing ventured nothing gained.

Thanks for all the experience and support gentlemen

Ironman wrote:Keith.. My son burns 20 gal ...round trip catalina.. Newport.
my Hawiian friend told me always turn on the bow bilge pump during a big marlin fight ..for that wave that comes ova the transom into the cabin.. when your busy!.. Wayne

Now that's economy , NICE!

Ironman wrote:The "Bad Company"(I think a 60ft Viking ..brand new). calm seas I hear.. hit a whale ..holed the bow area. They detached the generator intake up in that area & saved the boat.. almost a total loss.. few years ago. I got some pics somewhere ..
Wayne

Yea that's a nice boat saw Steve on her last season off Dana.

Nice boat with the best electronics makes the catching much easier especially being able to see anything around you at any angle for a mile on the search light and talk about getting up off the water sweet fish wouldn't have a chance.

Never thought about pulling an intake i like it very smart indeed.

Tony Meola wrote:Keith

To put this in perspective:

You asked and the gang answered. Not pretty, but good advice. Of course you don't need to listen to us, but you would get the same advice from anyone with boating knowledge. The boat does not make the difference in this case. Bob is right, first one hits, floods the cockpit, second one, it is pretty much over, the third finishs what the second one did not.

Plus you are chumming for sharks, and might have to enter the water, not by choice.

Please take all the comments very serioiusly and also from a group that cares about each other even though we may not have met. Basically for a lot of us, we are really strangers, conected by this board and Capt. Pat. I have seen guys on this board reach out to help others they have never personally met.

This is truly an amazing place.

Thank You Tony

bob lico wrote:I vote for Walter! Brothers it does not take to much of a wave to go over with her ass pin down! Second wave goes in the cabin .you have three seconds to cut that parachute free, run to the bridge ,fire her up and get out of dodge before next wave forget crash valves transom is now level with waterline you must move forward to get that water out the scuppers and in my case 5 bilge pumps roaring once out of harms way you can think about crash valves while going forward into the waves.best idea is Walter's -----------prevention!

I agree Bob been there always crazy extra shorts you know lol and i use a trip line for the back of the parachute to dump and retrieve it.

Before i figured out the z-wings as stabilizers i had more problems with the mixed swell causing stability problems than swamping.

Before the z wings i was forced to motor away or roll now i can wait till swamping starts to become an issue from the stern.

I can't decide if the 31-B will swamp less than the 24 skip jack under my fishing conditions but time will tell.
Another advantage to the skip jack is it drifted fast 3-+ knots with little current partly because of the open design acting as a sail and the shallow V adding to stern lift apposed to the deep V.

31 Bertram is a great boat for fishing and diving...low sides and stern put you close to the action. I have a feeling these attributes may work against you.

Ever think about doing your work from the pointy end and let the seas just was over.you and the bow.

Then again soon as you start putting weight up front you'll have other problems.

Not going to work out so well working with big game.

I'll have to figure out my and the boats limitations and know when to head in.

Thank you guys appreciated.

i gave exactly that a lot of thought when i built my crash valve system.

What IS a "crash valve system"? I'm possibly familiar with the concept but not the term.

i do know a guy out alone at night who hit a log and holed the bottom. he detached a raw water intake hose, put it in the bilge, and ran home running his boat up on the launching ramp. not pretty but he saved the boat.

I would have run up a beach (nice soft sand) instead (assuming that was an option). Having said that, in naval practice having a T valve (connected to a hose and strainer in the bilge) on the raw water intake hose to facilitate emergency bilge pumping is SOP. I personally have modified every boat I have ever had to that configuration. Don't forget to make sure that the valve can't be accidentally turned! A simple pin based solution works fine in my experience.

having a T valve (connected to a hose and strainer in the bilge) on the raw water intake hose to facilitate emergency bilge pumping

Yup, that's a crash valve...

One more project to add to the list

One more project to add to the list

Do NOT forget, "crash valves" are an emergency option! You should have at least two bilge pumps (located as low as you can). Preferably connected to automated switches (floats). The pump connected to the lower float should be a "regular sized" pump that's sized to handle "regular" water ingress. The pump connected to the upper float should be an oversized pump that's sized to handle "flooding" water ingress.

Due to my naval background I prefer to have an additional gas or diesel (depending on the boat's fuel) powered portable self priming pump on board. I usually store this pump in a water tight box up front (next to the dingy and raft). This can be used for emergency pumping on your (or someone else's) boat by dropping the pickup pipe (with strainer) into your (their's) bilge. The discharge goes overboard. It can also be used as a fire fighting pump to fight fire on your (or someone else's) boat by dropping the pickup pipe (with strainer) into the sea. Of course, for the latter you need a suitable discharge hose. I use a short (7 yard) 1.5" rubberized canvas firefighting hose with suitable nozzle.

I prefer to get the Selwood PD75 or PD100 Spate unit for this application. Hand crank started and practically foolproof.

Navatech,

Great idea in theory but I wonder where you would store a unit like that. Not sure of the size but would seem to be a challenge just to get in the cabin door. The set up time rather then just having a handle to move on the crash valves and in case of fire how do you get your fuel from the boats tank to this thing?

Just doesn't seem practical on a 31 from many angles.

Pete

I have the two bilge pump auto valve as you describe in the stern but instead of that fire pump you describe I have 70psi with fog on salt water wash down pump in cockpit ready to go with the flip of cockpit switch I store hose away when docked.i also have a generator with high. Capacity pump to drop in wherever I need it . 110 volt outlets in cockpit or cabin. Gen battery isolated and mounted as high as possible in engine compartment.i have one mounted mid ships and two in salon all isolated on 3 battery banks. Salon is sealed from cockpit at main bulkhead.most likely to take a hit at night in bow I separate cabin from cockpit at main bulkhead with AC 110 pump option . this should give me time for life raft for crew.here is stern pump set up on separate 11/2" thruholes.

I have three way valves on both engines and the gen set.



I also keep 25' of 1.5" hose with a barb X barb fitting already in one end in case I need to vacuum water from somewhere other than mid ship, or my own ship.

The valves make winterization a breeze.

Mike thats a great idea .i use the crash valve system for winterizing but I would think the three way valve was two steps easier. I through the sharpies would comment on bilge hose , Yea I know most people don't use a clamp with hose collar but what the hell .

Hi Pete,

Great idea in theory but I wonder where you would store a unit like that.

As I said, I store mine (wheels removed in favor of a skid like replacement) in a watertight box on the front.

The set up time rather then just having a handle to move on the crash valves

First, it's not one or the other. The portable pump is an addition. As for set up, there is none. I remove the cover, connect the pickup hose and drop it into the boat and down into the bilge through the skylight/hatch. Then I start the engine.

in case of fire how do you get your fuel from the boats tank to this thing?

It has its own fuel tank. Enough for several hours of operation. I match the fuels for replenishment purposes.

Just doesn't seem practical on a 31 from many angles.

Agreed, for a 31 this particular unit would be too big. However, adopting the principle (albeit with a smaller unit) would be possible even on a 31. For example, store a small 800W gas generator (they're about as big as a 4 shoe boxes) and a matching submersible pump somewhere accessible and you're set.

Just remember to test run the engines on a quarterly basis.

High pressure/ high volume water spigot on port side with cockpit W/P panel next to it provide switching,starboard is separate pump low pressure for auxiliary live well.

I did replace my seacocks for the engine SW intake but mine are in a funny spot just forward and inside the shafts, up against the stringers and couldn't make a 3 way fitting work. So no crash valves. I do carry a small honda generator, gonna look into a subersible sump type pump.

As a side note the through hull fittings on my boat are not in what seems to be the standard loacations. SW intakes for engines as I mentioned are where they are. The pick ups for the SW wash and head are just behind the freshwater tank forward of the aft bulkhead. And my holding tank is below deck between the engines.

I do have an extension hose for winterizing and I figured in emergency using that as a crash pump but if things happen quick it's not a good solution.

To clarify, the emergency pump setup that I advocate is one that will operate without any connection to any existing boat system. It WILL work when everything else on the boat is inoperable.

Being able to move it to another boat (to help with emergencies) is an added but not required advantage. Same for firefighting capability. Let's face it, most boats that have an onboard fire will be worthless even if you do get the fire put out. I like to have it mainly because it might save lives.

PeterPalmieri wrote:I did replace my seacocks for the engine SW intake but mine are in a funny spot just forward and inside the shafts, up against the stringers and couldn't make a 3 way fitting work.

You can put the three way valve anywhere in line. Cut your raw water intake hose in a convenient spot and insert the valve. You need:

A hack saw to cut the raw water hose.
A 1.5" three way valve.
Three 1.5" thread to hose fittings
Six hose clamps.
A length of hose for the crash opening with a plastic strainer on the end.

Keith Poe wrote:Not going to work out so well working with big game.

I'll have to figure out my and the boats limitations and know when to head in.

Thank you guys appreciated.

As your putting a swim platform on anyway...ever consider making it buoyant. Not so much under water like the transom mounts for outboards...but more at and above the water line to add additional lift as the stern encounters a wave. Guess it's something that can be played with after you know were you are...strap flotation to platform and test with and without in similar conditions