Ressurection of the "Pepper"

[Ironworker]

I forgot the camper also contains a 43" 4K tv! It has room for an additional 600 watts of solar as well for a total of 1800 watts however based on the first 16 days of usage the additional solar would probably be overkill.

[Tony Meola]

Rick

When it comes to bug out time, we will all be looking to follow you.

That is some nice work on the trailer. You are going to make Yannis jealous.

[Yannis]

I am already!

The thing is I will never have the roof real estate of a trailer and, I have to come to terms with Li-Ion batteries.
I fear spontaneous fire and some...bank account issues!

But, inevitably, with this climate change which brings tremendous heat waves that last longer, if I am to continue spending all summer on the boat, I will need A/C powered by batteries which only Li-Ion can provide.

As for the panels, I now have 2X130w. When I’ll change the whole flybridge stainless arches system (to get rid of the bimini supports as I no longer need a bimini top), I will install the newer solar panels that are by just 8cm longer and can provide 2X170w.
These extra 80 watts times, say, 10 sunny hours per day, will add to my battery banks an extra 800 watts, which if I could only store somewhere (new Li-Ion batteries), I could add a small A/C unit, perhaps even a 30-60 liter watermaker.

Perhaps in this life, perhaps not....

So how many Li-Ion batteries do I need to be able to store 2X170w X 10h = 3.4kw/h per day? How much would they cost and what is their real lifetime?

My current battery bank yearly expenditure with 4 X 100amp/h lead acid batteries, is around €120.

[Geebert]

The thing is I will never have the roof real estate of a trailer and, I have to come to terms with Li-Ion batteries.
I fear spontaneous fire and some...bank account issues!

Lead acid battery manufacturers have come together for mutual benefit, invested in R&D, have made advancements, and are continuing to make advancements in lead battery technology.
The possibility that lead can closely match the performance of li-ion is still on the table and being pursued.

The weight will come down, charge acceptance and capacity will go up. Firefly batteries was on the right track, until they lost quality control, starting making junk, and chased a bunch of people to li-ion.

They may or may not ever be able to exactly duplicate li-ion in energy density, but coming close, with lower cost, and greater stability for safety, would just about kill li-ion. Add that to the rapidly dwindling resources required to produce li-ion, about 50% recyclable vs 99% with lead.
Oddly enough, the future is really still in lead. But how long until all that is possible is still anyone's guess.

I don't think lead will ever completely replace li-ion, but it will definitely be more competitive.

In the meantime,
There's really no more to worry about with li-ion than lead batteries FROM REPUTABLE MANUFACTURERS.

The cost of li-ion makes Chinese knock offs tempting.
Chinese knock offs make fire, all li-ion gets blamed.

The other aspect of why i say the risk is similar, is how dangerous lead batteries can be.

Lead batteries were melting, exploding, and causing fires long before anyone ever heard of li-ion.
They are so prevalent and taken for granted, i think their danger is ignored and forgotten to some degree, making li-ion seem more dangerous.

Yes li-ion can cause a fire if something goes wrong.
Yes lead can cause a fire if something goes wrong.
Yes, you need to take certain precautions with li-ion.
Yes, you need to take certain precautions with lead.

This seems similar to the gas vs diesel inboard discussion.
The lightweight hot rod will blow up
The heavy reliable slower is safer.

The remedy is the same.
Follow the established safety guidelines.
Take logical precautions where necessary
Perform routine maintenance.
Leave the experiments for science labs and kids on YouTube.

Everyone has to do their own cost benefit analysis and risk assessment.
I think both technologies are viable, i use both where logical, and i dont ignore the safety concerns with either.

[Yannis]

Thank you, Todd,

I just saw on youtube an incident, whereby there was a fire in some lithium batteries and it was impossible to put it out, even with the fire brigade, as a matter of fact they were saying that even if the fire is put out, it can restart in hours, days or even weeks! Brrrrrr....

I assume lead battery fires can be put out, which is something more reassuring at least...

I don't have any problem with lead battery quality, the issue is that you can only discharge them up to 50%, which means you have to carry twice the volume and the weight for the given amperage. This BECOMES my problem.

In other words, if you need AC and the equivalent necessary amps, you should create real estate NOT SO MUCH for solar panels, at least here in Greece where the sun is abundant, but down below decks where there is simply no room (let alone the weight).

Out of my 4 lead batteries, the 3 are house X 100 amp/h each = 300 amp/h divided by two = 150 usable amp/h.
This is just about enough for fridge and freezer and the occasional pumps and lights. Cooking and hot water I get from gas.
The fridge and freezer are roughly 70-80% of the total consumption, but it is impossible not to have ice for my mid day ouzo, or the evening cocktails.

[Geebert]

Yannis,
We're facing the same predicament.
I think we're even in similar climates.
Im in SW Florida, would love to have a/c, and not excited about a generator.

Definitely there's no putting out a lithium fire, ive seen that too.
I guess this goes back to perspective and risk planning.
If im offshore and the boat's on fire, whether it's lithium or lead acid, i'm abandoning ship. Other than something minor and not in the engine area, im not fighting it. The boat is too small, gas tank too big, and time required to get everyone off, too short, for me to pop the hood, break out the fire extinguisher, and try to save it.

By the way, that type of failure is thermal runaway. There are batteries, (the highest quality and most expensive) that are UL certified to not do that.
They contain their own failure within their enclosure, don't explode, don't burn, or they don't get the certification.
UL tests them by intentionally trying to cause what you described, and to get certified, they can't have catastrophic failure.

I should have clarified, when i say I'm fine with lithium on my boat, UL 1973 Certified are the only ones I'm referring to. I won't put any lithium on my boat other than that.

As for lead,
Ive attached a brochure from firefly, i don't know if you guys are familiar with them or not.
They were solving the 50% dod and weight issues you're describing.
6-800 cycles at 100% dod. If you mostly use your boat on weekends, for 2 days at a time, thats about 5-8 years of service, abusing it the whole time. 80% dod gives 9-12 years for the same scenario. These are 120ah group 31s in the brochure attached.

The problem, I've read, is their specific technology is patented, was sold, and who owns it now is far less conscientious of quality, at least in the US market.
Good news is there are similar capability batteries coming, whether firefly gets their act together or not.

Surrette Rolls is another high quality lead battery to look into.
They're not quite as capable as the carbon batteries from firefly, but have better life cycle than standard batteries when brought down to a low dod, like 80-100% with 500 cycles.

Im planning on using a combination of lithium and lead myself.
Still in planning phase and trying to get caught up at work.


Im really excited to see how Rick's Pepper turns out.
He's already saved me some headache by posting his journey.
Hopefully we can all benefit from his trying something different, as long as he's willing to share.

[Yannis]

Todd,

Thanks for all this, much enlightening, Ill keep an eye for these batteries.

One other thing that I observed this year is that now, in September, it has been VERY windy. Stranded as I am at the dock waiting for the weather to calm so I can leave to the next island, I noticed that the performance of my solar/battery combo is much better than in August, without any significant change in consumption patterns.

My explanation is that keeping the panels cool (thanks to the wind) they somehow perform better than in the July/August scorching sun, despite the fewer sunny hours...
I remember I had read something about solar performance in relation to temperatures, but never did I expect such a noticeable difference!

Unless it’s the fact that as my batteries which are in their last year of service, are somehow performing better, much like a car’s performance which breaks all records just before the engine is about to seize!

[Carl]

but it is impossible not to have ice for my mid day ouzo, or the evening cocktails.

glad to see you have your priorities straight.

lol



I think as we lean into battery power more n more we will see huge advancements in the technology. Even the cheap inferior batteries will teach us ways to cut costs and get more from less. Using less expensive materials and processes is dangerous at this point...but someone will figure it out as there is a huge incentive to make a lot of money.
With advances come more possibilities...a few years ago AC run on batteries for our size n style boat overnight was more fantasy than reality. Yannis is off the grid with solar chillin' the fridge n making cubes...

[Yannis]

Carl,

The point is to be able to take advantage of battery technology before we kick the bucket...
In other words, I will still buy 4 new lead batteries next year, despite all these advances...

I have a cousin who is a marine architect and long time power boat owner, he says, always buy the cheapest batteries (only referring to lead acid), as any price premium will never justify itself with a prolonged lifespan.
I bought cheap and expensive, Chinese and German, they all last me 4-5 years...

[Carl]

Yannis,

If you have a smartphone in your pocket or a tablet on the table you are taking advantage of that technology now as there are li-ion batteries in those buggers. Today they are safer, last longer, provide more power, and at a somewhat reasonable price point.

Yes like me, you are going out to buy tried and true lead-acid batteries for the boat, but today we do have the option of doubling the capacity going to li-ion. Today it does not make sense, maybe by the time we need new batteries again that may change.

Lead-acid hasn't had to change as there was little competition. That is changing as li-ion advances and another angle is people are realizing li-ion is not all that "green". What are the phases, "necessity is the mother of invention" and "fulfill a request"

[Yannis]

Carl,

You triggered my nosiness and I googled Li Ion to see what I’d get...

One site lead to another and finally I came upon this: “You wanna kill your Li Ion batteries? Throw them fully charged in a hot environment”. What? ????
So what is the temperature in my bilge after running the motors for a couple hours? So, where is one supposed to put these batteries? Under the v berth?
I’m almost ready to imagine my boat leaning heavily forward!

[Carl]

I do not think high temps are good with all battery types.

[Yannis]

You may be right. But they didn't say just no good.
They said it kills them!
I’m just saying what I read, which if it’s true, then it sounds like a problem...

In the 28 and probably also in the 31 there is no alternative storage space for 4 batteries, space and balance wise, but the bilge. Unless you demolish the cabin and change its intended use...

[Carl]

Yannis, I
I think they mean heat kills as in it drastically cuts down on the battery life, the number of charge /discharge cycles. The lead acid battery in dads truck doesn’t last in the Florida heat like it used to up here, especially when he was leaving it outside the garage.
In my boat the batteries sit on a shelf just below the companion way, between the motor compartments so they do not see the heat of the motors. It’s also a great place to put the extra weight of the batteries. I guess just one more reason the 31 is a superior boat to the 28… Wow, cool I got a 28 jab in there for you. Lol

Excessive heat and thermal runaway is beyond my understanding and the reason li- ion batteries are banned on airplanes…although allowed in your phone, tablet, n laptop??? My layperson understanding it’s when the battery gets hot enough the heat triggers a chemical reaction that creates more heat which in turn intensifies the chemical reaction creating more heat n the cycle continues to an intense fire. I guess in a sense that could be heat kills them, but that can also happen with lead acid batteries and lead acid vent hydrogen gas when charged. Something great to have in a confined space around electrical stuff.


I’m just thinking out loud n wondering where this technology will bring us. My daughter had an older Prius hybrid that I thought was pretty amazing technology from 05. Ran on both electric n gas n charged itself with the motor n when braking or coasting. The main battery was kinda cool, looked like a suitcase filled with flashlight batteries. Anyway,that car was old tech compared to what’s out today…the demand for better will drive advancements that I’m sure will trickle down to more alternatives for our boating.

Remember LORAN, when it came out the unit was huge, very expensive, you were only provided with two sets of numbers that could be plotted on a map to give a position within 100’ or so. At the time it was nothing short of amazing. Today the GPS on the phone in my pocket can show me what room in the house I am sitting, will provide a detailed turn by turn route with real life pictures to just about anyplace along with audible instruction from a personality of my choosing.


Boy, talk about taking a tangent.

[Yannis]

Carl, I don't know about statistics, but there have been billions of cars built with lead acid batteries, how often did you hear of a fire in any of them? One? Two?
I will not put this new li ion technology into my boat unless I’m sure it doesn't catch fire, for the time being I cannot be sure.

As for the B 28 companionway, its wider deeper and longer than the 31’s, haha!

[Carl]

So if your companionway is wider n deeper you have a place to keep batteries cool.

Lead acid battery’s have been around 150 years or so, I’d hope by now we got most of the kinks out of them. So, yes true we don’t hear about them failing much…but it does happen.
Li-ion has been around a while, but with the green push to move away from fossil fuels the past few years the technology is being pushed to advance. Like most everything it comes with trial and error.


Like you, I’m not switching from lead acid. But then I don’t have a reason to, I’m bare basic boat, lights, GPS, depth finder n a stereo , bilge pump, vhf. I haven’t hooked up the radar or auto- pilot nor the inverter since converting. Non the less, I like to tool around with the possibilities and appreciate those going down the cutting edge road.

[Yannis]

Oh, me too Carl, I appreciate the bold steps a few audacious owners took by installing the latest technology.

I wish them the best of luck in this pioneering feat and, who knows, one day I also might follow in their footsteps.

As for the companionway, I thought many times about placing the batteries in there, mainly for improving the boat rolling as much, only it requires a lot of work to keep that space dry and the idea of a watertight box doesn't thrill me. I also don't know how much cooler it would be down there as it is positioned between two hot motors...

[Carl]

Companionway-
On yours isn't the motor hatch a single piece across? Mine is broken up into three separate compartments. Each motor compartment has the inboard side of the motor box panel extending below the stringer cutting off. My middle area between stays cool. Batteries are about 6" over bilge in boxs so they stay dry n out of bilge water.
When I changed the deck from the old plywood to glass I made larger battery shelfs outboard the motors. At that time it seemed like a good idea to bring them up out of the bilge, opening up that space for storage and it would give me more room for additional batteries. I had three n was thinking of one starting n a deep cylce for each side.

I had the shelf tabbed in place getting ready to glass it, but had to work on motors. It was a pain working with the shelf there...then when I went to put battery in to measure for new cables I said no way. no longer a simple lower in, or grab n lift to remove. It was a funky twist n my back said no no no. So out the shelfs went. I cleaned up the old spot, new shelf in middle n that is where they stay...I have room for additional if I want...but one house fits my need now.

Oh, yours...if it's all sitting in the same opening I doubt the center is all that much cooler. BUT cooler non the less as the center bilge is lower, heat rises. N closer to the cool water should be a bit cooler. Maybe when your bored after a run you can toss a thermometer down there n check. During isn't so bad with motors pulling hot compartment air out...stopped is another story.

I hope Rick gives us an update so we don't have to keep talking about high-performance batteries we are not switching to any time in the near future

[Amberjack]

no longer a simple lower in, or grab n lift to remove. It was a funky twist n my back said no no no. So out the shelfs went.

Carl, I have outboard battery shelves in Amberjack's engine compartment. The boat came that way and since they were dilapidated I rebuilt them years ago. Always thought they were original configuration. And for years I did the twist and awkward lower in and twist and awkward lift out until I ruined a lumbar disc. Hauling anchor of course. So last time AJ was in the yard for work and the batteries were due for replacement I asked the young yard worker who was already on my clock, a big husky guy in his 20's if he would mind moving the new batteries into place. Sure, he was happy to since he probably didn't want to go back to cleaning out the dirty bilge in the boat next door. By the time he had all four batteries in place he had popped a real sweat and was just bushed. I think the job surprised him, especially since I'd been doing it and I was in my 60's. So I went by the yard that Friday about 4:00 and brought him a case of beer to start the weekend. He was pleased to have it. But the yard manager said the case would never make it out of the yard intact.

Yannis, I've been getting 9-10 years out of my lead acid batteries with no noticeable drop off in performance. They are well made batteries from a local company but still, the difference in performance must be largely due to your hot climate compared to ours.

[Yannis]

Doug,

The climate and probably the fact they only get charged by the solar panels, never plugged-in and never from a gen set.
I have the impression that solar amps are a bit second class
I see it also in the duration of other devices I charge on the boat, like the telephone or the shaving trimmer or the little hoover, they all seem to last less than if I charged them directly on the 220v city network.

It can also be the fact that inadvertently at some point after mid August, when the days get significantly shorter, I wake up with 11.8 volts, that later in the day shoot up to over 13v, but the damage to the batteries has been done.

[Tony Meola]

On the 28, the center between the engines is really deep. Even though it is all part of the engine room, looking at the layout on my friends 28, I don't think that area gets that hot from the engine heat.

Remember heat rises, the batteries would be low. But I am not sure it is any easier to get them out of that spot on the 28, as it is pulling them from outboard of the engines.

I still have mine sitting on the shelves outboard of the engine, yes, they are a pain, but the group 31's are much easier to wrangle out of there then the old Surrette's were. The original batteries they put in for the big blocks were easily 125 lbs. apiece.

[Ironworker]

Hey guys, sorry for my absence. But as I said I was "off grid". Six weeks with virtually no INET or reliable cell service. We just got back to civilization today. Later next week I'll get back to work on finishing up my 31.

One thing that I do want to mention is that Li-ion is not suitable for boats or for that matter any large installation. The batteries that I'm using are LiFePO4. Its a much more stable battery chemistry than Li-Ion. More specifically, I'm using Battleborn Gamechanger 3.0 batteries at 270 amphours each. They weigh about 73#s each which if roughly the same as a 100 amphour AGM battery. The AGM can be drained to about 50% of capacity before damaging the battery whereas the LiFePO4 battery can be safely depleted to 20% of capacity.

Having said that, Battleborn will soon be shipping a new battery which will conform with the recommendations of AYBC's shutdown notification protocol. I suspect they will have some new integration features as well. I should get my hands on the newer batteries for a new project I'm starting shortly.

Regarding the off grid camper, Energy wise its about as self contained as it can be. I have a 12,000 btu mini split heat pump installed (both heat and air conditioning). I can use the Air conditioning, lights, water pumps and inverted power for the TV, Hot water heater, two DC coolers/fridges all day and night and other miscellaneous stuff and only use about 15% on average of the total battery bank capacity per day. I have four of the 270 amphour batteries for a total of 1,080 amphours.

The solar panels will recharge the batteries to 100% in a couple of hours.

Now heating is a different story. Using the electric heat at night in sub freezing temps along with the other stuff will utilize about 25% of the battery bank capacity. On a sunny day the solar panels easily recharges in a several hours.

I did not plug into shore power for the first 30 days. After 3 cloudy days making little to no solar and sub freezing temps at night the lowest my battery capacity got down to was 41%.

While the camper is not the boat, Its a good representation of the technology in a self contained vessel. I'll be in a position to give a very detailed report on the boat in about a month hopefully.

I owe you guys some more info and pics on my boat installation which I'll start posting this week.

[Tony Meola]

Rick

That is pretty impressive. You are truly breaking ground. I am sure the end results will be worth it.

[PeterPalmieri]

With no boat in the water I have killed some time on YouTube. There are some pretty amazing things going on especially in the world of multihull sail boats.

The problem of running heat and AC off a battery is no more, hydro regeneration from free spinning props. Recharging directly off the engines prop shaft rather than an alternator. Of course larger battery banks, solar panels. Hybrid motors that basically are a standard diesel with an electric motor as a transmission for lighter trolling speeds. Water makers have become unbelievable as well.

Sure some of it isn’t going to stand the rest of time and some are bad ideas. Obviously much easier to implement on a sail boat. Heck out some of these HH sail boats and hybrid cat powerboats.

It’s fun to watch and cooler to see real world implementation on a 31

[Ironworker]

Peter,

I've been looking at some of this new tech as well. Also, I've been having some conversations with people who are chasing the electric boat dream. In one particular case the designer was considering an electrical installation of 3,000 VDC! On a boat in the water!

The problem always comes back to the batteries. We need a big leap in battery technology to make the rest viable, IMO.

[Carl]

hydro regeneration from free spinning props.

Yes and no...
A boat Held still, sitting in current would see "free energy" as the current turned the prop n generated electricity.

A boat towed by TowBoat USA or a good samaritan would see free energy from its free-turning prop... Of course, the tow boat would use more power to tow it.

A sailboat powered by wind would see "free energy" by having the prop turn a generator...at the cost of additional drag. The prop already creates drag, now using it to generate electricity will create even more drag as it powers a generator or alternator.

On that thought, solar panels and those little wind generators seen on sailboats will produce free power. Well, semi-free as those things need to be made and bought and installed first...

Recharging directly off the engine's prop shaft rather than an alternator.

Unless you have a more efficient way of generating electricity, it does not matter where you pull the power from. If it takes 5hp to run the alternator on the motor, it takes 5hp to run it from the prop shaft.

It’s fun to watch and cooler to see real world implementation on a 31

Absolutely!

[Amberjack]

Hybrid motors that basically are a standard diesel with an electric motor as a transmission for lighter trolling speeds.

It’s fun to watch and cooler to see real world implementation on a 31

Electric trolling motors, I'd be all in! Trying to troll Amberjack with 5.5 k minimum speed and limited maneuverability in the small boat salmon fleet is like a hippopotamus dancing in the mosh pit.

But I don't see electric primary propulsion becoming viable for us. Our Bertram 31's are power hogs.

[PeterPalmieri]

They make them either to big or two small for our boat at this point. I was looking at a large bow mounted trolling motor just for the spot lock. I don’t think you’d get any speed out of it for trolling.

[Carl]

They make them either to big or two small for our boat at this point.

I think if the sales in the too-big / too-small realm are good, we will see manufacturers working to fill the gap.

Maybe instead of the units being drop in trolling motors they will be more on the Add on Bow Thrusters I have been seeing more and more of. And Bow Thrusters are not just bow thrusters anymore. Two guys I know of have added both bow and stern thrusters. One is on a 35' twin screw too, although his boat is more of a huge sail, so it makes sense. My point being those units produce a good amount of thrust. True for short periods of time, but with some tweaking, maybe it becomes a POD mounted to transom or bow that drops down when needed or built-in center ship. Heck if they can put Sea Keeper in a 31, why not a retractable POD.
Doug, your are right it could be a power hungry system for our 31, but a genset or one motor running to charge.

Hmm, maybe crude, but mini tow boat you deploy like a sea anchor with a little motor of its own. Let it go ahead, who cares if it makes noise up ahead.

[Ironworker]

Well my shoulder has healed enough that we got back started on the boat yesterday. NOW my problem is being stopped by all the boaters cruising on the ICW shouting at me about how great the boat looks, asking various questions and taking pictures. We had a 100 footer, back up so the guy at the helm could get a picture!!!

Everybody loves a 31 Bertram.

[jayjays1]

Hey good that you are back into it. What gears you running and what ratio?
JJ

[jayjays1]

And props?

[Ironworker]

Engines are Cummins QSB 5.9 380 HP

Props are ACME 20 X 26 #8 CUP

Gears are ZF220A with 1.75 ratio.

I will post some performance data as soon as I can get the boat back together enough to run her.

[jayjays1]

cool thanks much!