Oil change

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 1st, '20, 10:02

I talked to my mechanic who was changing my oil with his pumping device and recycle bucket, about that valve that I saw from Mike at some point, whereby you can just open the valve and easily collect the oil in a receptacle, by gravity.

He said fine, we can install such a valve, but how will you be able to bring out the pan full of dirty oil without tipping it over?
There is no way you can pull anything in a horizontal fashion from down there, the clearances are minimal. And that pan has to be very slim, it cant be a used oil canister that closes with a lid either.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 1st, '20, 13:13

Yannis wrote: but how will you be able to bring out the pan full of dirty oil without tipping it over?

Oh that's easy Yannis, you buy a pump to suck the old oil out of the pan.

OR

you change the oil on land. It can flow directly out the hose into a jug you place under the boat.
Just need to drill a hole under each engine for the hose to go through.

I'm pretty smart huh

Enough of that.
Can you drill a hole in the stringer allowing a hose to pass through and flow down further to a pan or jug in the center keel area?
If not, just hook a hose up to the valve and use an inexpensive pump to suck the oil out and into a receptacle of your choice skipping the need for gravity.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 1st, '20, 13:52

Oh, I didn't know you could attach a hose on the thingy.
Still, though, who's gonna twist down there to attach it to the thingy?
Perhaps it could be done once and remain permanently, I’ll have to go down and see where the tap is (on second thought I cant go down...).

As for the hole in the stringer, the “most popular Bertram of all times” has one ! Haha!
Thanx!

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 1st, '20, 20:15

Yannis

Simple, attach the hose to the pan and make it long enough so that you can easily reach it. Put a fitting on it,with either a cap on it or a shut off of some type so it does not leak. Now you can attach a pump to it and then suck it out that way. Much cleaner than using the dipstick and gets all the oil out.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Apr 1st, '20, 23:06

I use those valves on my cars. I have a pump system on the boat.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 2nd, '20, 01:16

Thanks guys.

Tony, the point is to not have to use a pump or any other tools at all, or else I can still continue relying on the pump system my mechanic uses. The dipstick method is clean, not one drop of oil in the bilge.

The reason I brought this up is because I wanted to be able to do the oil change by myself so that I make sure that every drop of oil is extracted every time. I will not go buy a pump, hoses, cables, clamps, buckets...so I thought the valve thing might be a solution. If, as you guys suggest, I could do this by attaching a tube that brings the oil receptacle closer, that’s fine. If not, well, I’ll sit on my eggs and continue relying on my mechanic. No big deal.
One good thing with most engines, like mine, where oil is changed meticulously every season without any exception, is that they always run with fresh oil, so even that little bit of oil remaining in the bottom of the pan that cannot be extracted with the pump is not all that dirty...

Also, this year I changed all the pink paraflu per the Yanmar instructions that this should be done every 3rd year. I noticed a bright clean color in the old juice, denoting there is no rust or deterioration in the system. When I bought the boat I had to go through several consecutive coolant changes to get rid of black residue. The previous owner did not use proper Yanmar coolant, rather another pink juice of dubious quality probably to save some coin. As for every manufacturer there are some peculiarities, for Yanmars (I learned) you have to use the original Yanmar coolant and engine anodes. For the rest you might want to improvise but for those two you’d better stick to the manufacturer instructions of using the suggested parts.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Apr 2nd, '20, 14:28

Yannis wrote:Thanks guys.

As for every manufacturer there are some peculiarities, for Yanmars (I learned) you have to use the original Yanmar coolant and engine anodes. For the rest you might want to improvise but for those two you’d better stick to the manufacturer instructions of using the suggested parts.

I too use the Yanmar coolant to be on the safe side and it doesn't cost much more than alternative brands. But I've been using off the shelf engine anodes, changed annually, because I haven't heard guidance to the contrary except here. Explain what is different about the Yanmar anodes other than the fact they are probably twice as expensive.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 2nd, '20, 15:07

Amberjack wrote: But I've been using off the shelf engine anodes, changed annually, because I haven't heard guidance to the contrary except here. Explain what is different about the Yanmar anodes other than the fact they are probably twice as expensive.

There is certainly a markup on some companies anodes, but there are differences in composition and how they are made that makes them react differently. I machine a thousands of anodes each year for a couple customers. And while much of the material is very much the same standard spec that comes in from the same few foundries and very much interchangeable, others jobs require we use very specific grades of zinc.

Ask me whats the difference and I'll tell you I have little idea aside from the way they form and the composition of the alloy. I guess that true as I just said it again. Too pure, not pure enough, cast, die cast or forged and the alloying elements...hmm, guess that would be composition. Anyway that is what I have been told...but to me its all basically the same, I'm a machinist, not a metallurgist...just tell me which to use or supply it and we are good.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 3rd, '20, 00:40

Doug,

The Yanmar anodes are probably overpriced. I understand that anyone can buy off the shelf anodes cheaper.
However, come to think of it: in my case (4LHA) I spend around €450 per year for all consumables (for both engines). These are the anodes, oil, two diesel filters, one air filter, oil filter, impeller. Add another €100 for when I replace the coolant.
How much does the anode cost difference represent in your annual cost of the boat? Not much really and you're playing it safe, right?

Also, one of the reasons I do prefer original anodes is that I heard that these engines combine a lot of different metals, so they need an optimal anode protection. Some models are yet more sensitive to anode protection than others, but I can't remember which, I think the 315 but not too sure. I got proof that using a third party coolant is detrimental to my engines. Why would I want to test the validity on the anodes?

PS: The most absurd cost of them all is the cost of the air filter, that piece of foam crap that’s silly expensive. I still buy it. I could rinse in warm water and soap the old ones and reuse. I have a spare set of rinsed ones onboard. But I reckon I’d buy new ones every time.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Apr 3rd, '20, 14:23

Carl-Yannis, good answers both. And the issue with the anodes is not the price but rather the trip way across town to buy them, plus another trip if I lose or break one. I know, buy a couple spares....and try not to lose them! So now I'm sold on the anodes because I don't know any better. But on the r/w pumps I do! The Yanmar impeller is made by Johnson and carries the same part number as the ones I buy off the shelf.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 3rd, '20, 15:36

Doug,

How close are you to these figures?

https://imgur.com/pH3xca7

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 3rd, '20, 21:24

Yannis

Unfortunately, Yanmar puts a gun to your head when you need parts. They must have learned from Volvo.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 4th, '20, 04:59

Doug, when you change your anodes, there must be one or two that are in good shape. Keep them onboard, so you dont have to run far in case you lose any!

Tony, alright, excluding all unexpected damages or some necessary, but not strictly annual costs, such as cleaning of heat exchangers etc, so just accounting for annual consumables and mechanic costs, I’m at €1000 per year. How much less do you guys spend?

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Apr 4th, '20, 14:24

How close to those (Yannis') figures? Don't know but I'll look through my receipts some rainy day. Again, its not so much the cost as 1. convenience and 2. the idea of paying 50% more for a part that has a different manufacturer's name and part number inside the Yanmar box. I also do most of my own routine preventative maintenance, a habit I began when we had our first large boat, two kids, tuition to pay and not a lot of money. I do it now because I enjoy it (I don't golf) and it helps me understand the engines better than many of my hands off counterparts. The professional Yanmar mechanic still comes in for an annual evaluation and to do the more skilled work.

Yannis, you are correct, the 6LP 315 Yanmars are the ones with dissimilar metals which is why I change my Yanmar coolant every two years. And there is a surprise in the owners manual which calls out 5 anodes per engine when there are in fact 6--there is also one in the engine fuel cooler which is not listed in the manual! Now that I understand engine anodes better I will switch to Yanmar for those parts.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 4th, '20, 21:13

Yannis

I spend $80.00 a year on oil, about $50 on Filters that is oil and diesel. I have been lucky and have not needed engine zincs. My neighbor had about 20 bunch left over from his Cummins he gave me, but I only use one in each engine.

Not sure if you are including winterization. There I am at about $80. Air filters run $100 a piece but I think I am converting over to washable filters if we ever get in the water this year.

Throw in silicone spray to coat the engines for the winter, another $25 dollars.

So all toll I am for about $300 for the engines.

This does not include water pumps when needed, batteries, trans coolers when they go.

Lets see what am I missing. Forgot, change the oil in the transmissions. 6 quarts of 30 weight oil is another $12.

So to cover what I missed lets say $400 a year which is probably $390 Euros.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 4th, '20, 22:09

Tony,

We have no winterization costs as temps don't go below freezing.
If you add the 10 engine zincs we have to change yearly, plus the impellers, plus water trap filters, plus the yanmar coolant, we are more or less the same.
For us who are not mechanically inclined, or have no mechanical skills, you have to add the cost of the mechanic.
Whatever the outcome (around € 1000 without heat exchangers, batteries etc that are not yearly costs), this cost is a very small part of the yearly total boat cost, thats why I get all consumables directly from the authorized dealer, in one trip, and thats it. I always try not to lose any while transporting them, lol.
After Doug’s post I looked up the impeller cost from e bay or amazon etc, and although cheaper, the cost of postage brings it to about the same, so there too, getting them from the dealer does not harm me that much.

Oh, and $400 is more like €360!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 5th, '20, 07:27

There is no need to squeeze every drop of oil out of an engine.
If your changing it on scheduled basis it's not the lubricity that your worried about its the additives. 10 or 20% of old oil left in an engine won't change anything.
Out of thousands of gallons of oil I've changed over the years I never saw a failure from a small quatity of oil left during a change. This from a range of a few hp to over 5000hp.

Zincs come in a variety of quality, factory zincs no matter the price are worth it along with a proper bonding system. Coolant is the same, there is some crap coolant on the market that will destroy aluminum systems.

On pumping your own oil, it can be done with a simple par hand bilge pump with hot oil. Even from a dip stick.

The yanmar foam filters to me are not considered air filters, they are debris filters. I used to have a cross reference to a Napa actual air filter that would fit the 4lh and 6lp but don't remember. It fit in place perfectly for the whole steel cage cause I used to see in wet locations the cage rust and turbos injest chunks of metal.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 5th, '20, 10:44

Bruce,

I was mostly worried from metal residue in the oil which, as being heavier and goes to the bottom, cannot be extracted with the pump which pulls until a few mm from the bottom of the pan. I asked my mechanic if the oil tap had a magnet on it and said no.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 5th, '20, 11:43

The oil sump doesn't go to the bottom of the pan so any metallic particles that settles out of solution won't get picked up. Besides if they are circulated they go from the sump to the filter which will catch them.

Next oil change have the mechanic drain oil, pull pan plug and affix a magnet to the back of plug with super glue and reinstall. Every couple years check on oil change, but you really shouldn't find anything. Any wear usually shows up on new engine in the 500hr breakin which isn't much.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 5th, '20, 13:06

Thanks Bruce, I’m currently at 420 hrs. Next year I’ll bring my superglue!

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Apr 7th, '20, 08:32

I installed a built in oil changing pump.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 7th, '20, 08:35

Pics? Think about your fellow boaters!

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Apr 7th, '20, 08:40

Sorry, I cannot get to her right now. The hoses run from special oil plugs with a small sump in them. The pump is reversible and also puts the oil back in out of a large container. Pretty slick I think. I got a deal on it as a kit.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 7th, '20, 10:08

I wonder for how long you'll not be able to go to her...
Your description...fires up my wildest instincts!!

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 7th, '20, 10:35

https://www.boatid.com/reverso-pumps/oi ... gLWl_D_BwE

http://www.x-change-r.com/changers/changers.shtml

http://www.x-change-r.com/changers/simpleInst.shtml (go to bottom of page for simple install) It can be customized anywhere you want to mount

Here are two pump systems with links. Go with the gear pump, you can change the oil cold and never have to change impellers or deal with hot engines.

Find a place to mount pump and valves. Run a hose(oil rated) to the drain plug on oil pan on each engine. You can make a fitting, or buy one Yanmar sells em.

Outlet hose goes into a 5 gallon bucket. you can also buy oil in 5 gallon buckets and save and use the pump for sucking out and into engines.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 7th, '20, 12:00

I’m sensed to think that you guys are...hit by the virus!
You're saying, in the most pedagogical manner, it’s true, that this is better than just letting my mechanic do the oil change?
I can’t stop thinking about it!
PS i wish I could offer you guys some shots of frozen tsipouro but, you see, we’re too far away.
Keep safe. Don't go out. Period.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Apr 7th, '20, 12:29

Yannis: By the time you pay the mechanic a couple of times you will have paid for the pump!

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 7th, '20, 16:31

Rawleigh, it has nothing to do with money, nothing.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 7th, '20, 20:32

Rawleigh

Yannis is kind of laid back when it comes to work. LOL

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 7th, '20, 22:10

Tony,

Ha ha, laid back! I love it!
I may have other talents, or I should anyway, engines and pumps aint my strong points. And if you talk electrics, forget it.
Also, I have a very sensitive back and simply cannot perform the necessary twists to reach down there. Last year in February I tried something similar and spent the whole month in bed. I wish i were a bilge monkey, besides I can hardly fit between the two engines...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 8th, '20, 05:54

Yannis wrote:Tony,
I may have other talents, or I should anyway, engines and pumps aint my strong points. And if you talk electrics, forget it.

Sometimes our best talents are knowing our limitations...

Sometimes our talents are to know its better to pay, then play.

Sometimes our talents afford us the luxury of not having to do what we really do not enjoy.

Me...I don't particularly mind doing maintenance BUT I DO have a problem paying others to do what I can do just as good or better for less.
So I'd rather do it myself and put the saved Buck A Roonies into the fuel tank. I was going to say gas tank...but its a Fuel tank now.

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Apr 8th, '20, 09:03

I would rather work on the boat than do anything at the house. Bilge rat...

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 8th, '20, 09:35

Carl, I like your definition of talents!

Joe, of course, theres no nagging at the boat, especially inside the bilge!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 8th, '20, 11:39

Yannis wrote: Joe, of course, theres no nagging at the boat, especially inside the bilge!

Oh you haven't been around my family...

Little while after we got the boat my wife wanted to go to Fire Island with the boat for a week.

Great...but boat didn't have AC electric, no water tank, no water lines, no pump. The boat did have an Ice Box which my wife Did Not Want. Boat didn't have a battery charger or AC panel. She wants all this in to go...I have a week to get it done. So to get boat ready I ordered everything up and Friday after work I started installing...well first ripping everything out so I could install. Seats and engine boxes up, panels everywhere are removed, seat cushions tucked inside V-berth, all inside hatch s open...get a picture of how this is looking?

Down the dock comes my wife and her parents...she wants me to finish up so I can show them the boat and take them for a ride.

I give a nice..."sure take a seat I'll be done in a few minutes" remark.
They proceeded to sit down on the transom. Half half hour or so later...Are you almost done?

So I give a "You didn't think I was serious did you?' which turned into I asked them to come down and said we'd go for a ride, you said a few minutes...now what do I tell them.

R U kidding me?? look around I'm not putting this stuff back in to take a ride.

I do recall getting alot of work done that weekend...

Then we had the day a bunch of us are taking our boats to the beach. I must have sucked up a bag or something...one motors temp just climbs. Back flush the intake and I'm not getting water in...but not flowing right. Pump ran dry. So I start pulling the seats and motor box as its a bit of an ordeal to get to pump. And I'm getting daddy everyones leaving how long can't we go now and you fix later. My wife is we should have went with them can you hurry up...

So instead of pulling box I crawl in from the top...engine is nice and warm. Pull pump change impellor and they are sticking their head in the motor box hatch every two minutes if I'm almost done, can we go can we go...

yeah...no nagging in the bilge.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 8th, '20, 12:09

Carl,

I didn't do this ...special twisting movement when I had to, so that I could obtain girls, so I have a boy lol.
I don't know, in-fact I do know that I would never be able to cope with the situations you just described...
I’m re reading your comment, man you should apply to become Saint!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 8th, '20, 14:25

Yannis wrote:Carl,

I didn't do this ...special twisting movement when I had to, so that I could obtain girls, so I have a boy lol.
I don't know, in-fact I do know that I would never be able to cope with the situations you just described...
I’m re reading your comment, man you should apply to become Saint!

No...I'm far from being a saint. I have plenty of my moments too...

...and I was happy my wife was interested enough to want to bring her parents.

happy she wanted to take a trip with the boat.

Happy kids were excited to go out on the boat and hang with our friends.

I used to do all my maintenance during the week, they never really saw or noticed what it takes to get something done.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 8th, '20, 21:19

Yannis & Carl

I am lucky enough that my wife actually helps me with some of the chores on the boat. Early in our dating and marriage, she actually helped my father and I barrier coat the bottom and paint it. As we have gotten older, the painting part has slowed down, but she helps me cover and uncover it, and wash it and wax it.

Then for the other stuff she now reads a book and gives me moral support, and when I do need a second pair of hands she is there.

But right now we have hit our road block. With Virus thing, I want to uncover the boat she says wait. Oh what to do. She knows that if I decide to uncover it is coming off with or without her. I will just suck my nephew into helping with the cover. LOL

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 9th, '20, 05:29

Tony Meola wrote: But right now we have hit our road block. With Virus thing, I want to uncover the boat she says wait. Oh what to do. She knows that if I decide to uncover it is coming off with or without her. I will just suck my nephew into helping with the cover. LOL

Drastic times call for drastic measures...

and

...a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 9th, '20, 22:18

Carl you are 100% correct except for one over riding factor, "a happy wife is a happy life."

Maybe Yannis has the right idea.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 9th, '20, 23:27

Tony,

Some parrots, the albatross and humans are the only species on earth who seek lifelong relationships with the opposite sex.
Perhaps a handful more.
So yes, nephews would do fine, thanks!

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Apr 10th, '20, 10:10

My wife thinks a 50 yr old boat should look and operate as brand new. My comment "sell the house and buy a new boat" didn't go over too well!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Apr 10th, '20, 15:47

Joseph Fikentscher wrote:My wife thinks a 50 yr old boat should look and operate as brand new. My comment "sell the house and buy a new boat" didn't go over too well!

I'd say "why, your over 50 and you don't look and operate like brand new".

I guess that would not go over too well either...but you would get the whole v-berth to yourself

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Apr 10th, '20, 16:36

V Berth?

After making that statement your lucky to get a blanket to sleep in your car.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Apr 10th, '20, 20:43

Carl

Probably also get you a black eye.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 11th, '20, 10:49

Hahahaha I aint got none of that !

Joseph Fikentscher · Post by **Joseph Fikentscher** » Apr 13th, '20, 09:05

Took bit but all good now.

Amberjack · Post by **Amberjack** » Apr 25th, '20, 14:06

[quote="Yannis"]Doug,

The Yanmar anodes are probably overpriced. I understand that anyone can buy off the shelf anodes cheaper.

After input from the board I switched to Yanmar factory anodes for this spring maintenance. Research showed the same product available online for from $30 per set of 5 up to $50 for the set. These are online prices, the local Yanmar dealer is probably around $70. The package arrived today and will go into the engines this week. Amberjack moves to summer saltwater moorage Friday and is looking forward to trying some of that $2.00/gallon diesel this summer!

Our CV curve has flattened and the governor is slowly relaxing guidelines although I'm concerned that as he cracks the gate slightly there will be a rush through it and trouble to follow. At any rate our trip to Puget Sound involves no social contact as we handle our own lines in the Ballard Locks.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 25th, '20, 20:24

Doug,

I bought my anodes from Yanmar for €62 per set. I understand they are a bit more expensive than off the shelf. The impellers too. I googled them and they appeared cheaper by around €20 each. In the best scenario.
However, if you consider what the total cost of all the consumables represents in the total boat running cost, it just doesn't justify the hassle. I agree, I don't want to throw money out the window either and I try to save from wherever possible, but what it all boils down to is what? €100 a year? For us who will pay twice as much for p&h through Amazon or ebay, this renders the exercise even less attractive.

Have a nice summer. I wish Canada was closer, I envy those places, winter and summer.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Apr 26th, '20, 07:13

Yannis,
After pumping out through dipstick I wanted to see how much was left in the pan. I pulled the plug to get out that last couple cups of oil. What I actually got was was maybe a teaspoon. Not worth the effort by any means. But it was a good peice of mind to know.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Apr 26th, '20, 10:07

Yes, Kevin, I agree.

My mechanic told me that in these Yanmars the plug doesn't sit in the lowest position. So, there will will always be something left in there, even if you pull the plug. I don't know why they designed it so the plug isn't at the lowest point but...I think I’ll live with it and the couple of cups of old oil that gets recycled every time.

How are your steyers doing? I have friends in Austria in case you may need some piece.