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Bertram31.com General Bulletin Board
Re: Coast Guard Response to Ethanol Questions
Posted By: Capt Bob In Response To: Re: Coast Guard Response to Ethanol Questions (Carl)
Date: Thursday, 6 April 2006, at 11:54 a.m.
Here is a long e mail from Bill Demarais that is from Boat US and insurance Co. and a Testing Lab in NH.READ it maybe they can answer the question on coatings.
This is a long Email about gas problems in Bertra and others, gas tanks.
The EMail at the end is from a testing company in Somersworth, NH.I am planning to cut samples of my tank and send them to the testing
company in NH. If they find that the tank has the problem I am going to
replace it. I have sent Email to Bertram to inquire about this, but not
heard from them.Ethanol is here, look at the pump when you get gas next time, they are
labelled containing Ethanol. Bridge MArine and everybody else on the river
will be selling it.Call me if you have questions.
Steve
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Fort [mailto:CFort@BOATUS.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2006 9:55 AM
To: Jane Christen; boatpokers
Subject: RE: [Boatpokers] Fw: Stuck Intake Valves and Ethanol in
GasolineJane, this is a large problem in the Long Island Sound area of New York.
BoatU.S. has been investigating the problem since August, along with Ken
Weinbrecht, Tony Fazio, and Paul Tobin.I have become the point man for the data collected at BoatU.S. So far we
have
over 40 confirmed reports of either engine damage or fuel tank damage, and
the
total amount is certainly several times that.There are many older (generally pre-1986) Hatteras, Bertram, Chris Craft,
and
other yachts with gas powered engines and fiberglass fuel tanks - we insure
hundreds of them. The majority of the problems have come from Long Island
Sound where these boats are very popular (Hatteras and Bertrams were built
on
the east coast). New York changed their fuel formulations from gas
oxygenated
with MTBE to gas oxygenated with ethanol just before winter layup in 2004.
By
the next spring, problems were beginning to show up due to the fuel
remaining
in tanks over winter. By last August we began to recieve reports of bent
pushrods, caused by a black substance causing the valves to stick. With the
help of Tony Fazio, we had some tests done on the fuel that was in the tanks
as well as the black stuff on the valves. The fuel contained traces of
styrene
and spectroscopy of the valve material showed what was probably polyester.
At
that point, BoatU.S. sent out a press release concerning the problem that
was
picked up by LIS newspapers and monthlies. We started receiving a flood of
calls from boaters with these problems.In three cases, the tanks were so far degraded that they began leaking, one
due to a seam at the junction of a tank bottom and top, and two that were
actually weeping through the laminate. After visiting LIS, and seeing the
tanks and talking to boatyards, we commisioned Rick Strand to do an analysis
of some old tanks. We just recieved the report this week and in a nutshell,
his testing shows that the tanks lost about 40% of their strength (these
results and others will be published shortly on the Seaworthy website). Last
week, I spoke to the head chemist at Gougeon Bros (West System Epoxy) who
gave
me their test results showing that their best resin/hardner combination was
weakened by about 10% over a 16 week period. He feels that the amount of
degradation would continue at the same rate.Originally, all of the problems were confined to the LIS area, which was
puzzling since California and the Great Lakes areas also use ethanol (though
California uses only 5.6%). However, since the press release, we have gotten
three reports from California and one from Michigan. I suspect we will see
more. I think the majority of boats that are affected are in LIS since most
of
the reports involve Hatteras and Bertram. However, some Chris Crafts were
made
with fiberglass tanks and we have now had reports of the "Black Plaque" from
them as well.Now the bad news. New Jersey is changing over to ethanol fuel and most other
states will eventually follow as MTBE is banned in more states. The last
energy bill, signed by the president, calls for billions of gallons of
ethanol
to be used in the gasoling supply (tax incentives will insure this). We
expect
to see many more affected boats in the next few years. In addition, many
work
boats are still built with fiberglass tanks (one of our reports is from a
converted lobster boat) and even if epoxy is used, they will not hold up to
ethanol. Certain vinylester resins are the only resins proven to withstand
ethanol.Fred Hochgraf contacted me a few weeks ago proposing an article for BoatU.S.
After I responded to him, I heard nothing further, so I guess he has chosen
to
give out his information this way.His analysis, if correct, sheds more light on the problem.
The bottom line is that these gas tanks are being destroyed and are
destoying
engines as well. Many boat owners are replacing their tanks that were made
from materials that were once thought to the the ultimate with aluminum
ones.
Some boat owners have had to replace two engines and a fuel tank at a cost
of
$30,000. Most insurance companies are not covering this problem as it is a
wear and tear, manufacturer's defect or corrosion issue. Our biggest fear
is
that someone will be hurt of killed because of a leaking tank. In fact, I
recieved a call from a BoatU.S. member whose boat was equipped with an
old-style plastic fuel bowl and plastic drain screw. The drain screw
softened
due to ethanol and began dripping gas onto a spinning water pump belt,
flinging gas everywhere. Were it not for his vapor detector, he could have
been seriously hurt.If you know of any affected boats, please forward the information to me. If
you need further information, I'm glad to share what I have.Chuck Fort
BoatU.S.I received the following information today, as did the other surveyors
listed.
While the information is of significant interest, I cannot remember the last
time I saw a boat with fiberglass tanks and gasoline engines. ABYC
24.18.1.4
says "Non-metallic materials are considered acceptable for corrosion
resistance; however, all other requirements of this standard must be met."I have two thoughts:
1) Could the breakdown of fiberglass resin by ethanol in fuel be considered
a
form of "corrosion"?
2) If ethanol is a common additive to diesel fuel (where the majority of
fiberglass tanks are found) will those engines also suffer the same fate?Looking for thoughts and guidance from pokerland, as we are all seeing some
engines that are sludged-up.Jane Christen, AMS
Michel & Christen Marine Loss/Damage Surveyors
501 E Bayview Dr.
Shelton WA 98584
1-800-794-0089 office
1-800-870-0035 fax
www.MarineLossSurveyors.com----- Original Message -----
From: Karen York
To: LCreekm290@aol.com ; jdinges@hiwaay.net ; Rhunter013@aol.com ;
MaSurveyor@aol.com ; bluesnow@bellsouth.net ; survey@gdssco.com ;
williambabcock@usa.net ; blueyesix@gci.net ; JSepel@aol.com ;
norcoast@ptialaska.net ; troyt@ctcak.net ; joederie@earthlink.net ;
captbill@ctaz.com ; redcholla@mindspring.com ; tom@desertmarineclaims.com ;
JELMarine@aol.com ; boatguy64@yahoo.com ; bobakers4@hotmail.com ;
Hbandersen@aol.com ; chris@surveyorcraft.com ; Yachtsmanmarine@aol.com ;
pbick49@earthlink.net ; blairsurvey@msn.com ; bornhlt@aol.com ;
johnbowman@4safe.com ; jesse@baymarinesurvey.com ;
srcaughey@sausalitoyacht.com ; kellschristian@cox.net ;
mollyclark2003@yahoo.com ; dalydolphin@aol.com ; mdickinson@socalsurveys.com
;
survey@admiraltyservices.com ; rjwsurvey@yahoo.com ; polarismar@msn.com ;
OHayesurvey@aol.com ; rss@maritimesurveyors.com ; alan@captainhugenot.com ;
surveyjack@aol.com ; smacnear@sbcglobal.net ; MCMS@michel-christen.com ;
covesurv@att.net ; kdma@aol.com ; oceanusmarine@hotmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2006 10:59 AM
Subject: Stuck Intake Valves and Ethanol in GasolineDear Marine Surveyors,
Enclosed is a letter written by New Hampshire Materials Laboratory's Senior
Scientist, Fred Hochgraf, which we believe you may find valuable.Sincerely,
Karen York
New Hampshire Materials Lab
January 24, 2006
Stuck Intake Valves and Ethanol in Gasoline
Several of our marine adjuster clients have sent us intake valves having
heavy, black deposits under the crowns. The valves we have received to date
had been taken from gasoline engines in older yachts that had recently
changed
over to gasoline containing ethanol. Bent pushrods and bent valves have
been
reported with heavy engine damage when pistons impacted the valves.We removed some of the black sludge from under an intake valve crown. We
soaked the sludge in ethanol and, after taking the extract down to dryness,
we
obtained the infrared absorption spectrum. We found that the material is
di-iso octyl phthalate.We ran a series of experiments using straight gasoline and gasoline with 10%
ethanol on fiberglass coupons and coupons of filler taken from one of the
fuel
tanks of the vessel from which the valves had been taken. Shortly before
engine failure that vessel had changed over to gasoline having 10% ethanol.
The results can be summarized as follows.With both the straight gasoline and the gasoline having 10% ethanol,
analysis
by GCMS shows that the fuel's lightest fractions were absorbed into both
fiberglass and filler. Noting the very high flammability and volatility of
these light organic compounds, your profession needs to be alert to possible
outgassing and fire/explosion hazards.GCMS shows that the gasoline having 10% ethanol picked up four, very heavy
molecules from the fiberglass and two from the filler. The molecular
weights
of these molecules were in the range of 281 to 379. The straight gasoline
did
not pick up these molecules. Evaporating the straight gasoline we were left
with a thin film. Evaporating the samples that had picked up the heavy
molecules we were left with heavy, brown sludge. Infrared spectroscopy
showed molecular similarities between the sludge, and the material taken
from
under the intake valve crowns.This is what we believe is happening.
Polyester resins, gel coats and fillers commonly incorporate phthalates.
For
a review of the roles of phthalates in boat hull materials see Rockett, T.
J.
and Rose, V., "The Causes of Boat Hull Blisters", which can be downloaded
from
www.daviscoltd.com/nams/Documents/Blister_Report.html. In even the best
resins and layups a small proportions of these phthalates remain unreacted.
There are several water soluble molecules that are found in these materials
and they play a central role in blister formation and delamination.
Phthalates are only sparingly soluble in water however many are readily
dissolved by ethanol.Whereas gasoline free from ethanol never picks up phthalates, when ethanol
was
introduced the very small ethanol molecules diffused into the fiberglass,
filler and gel coat materials where they dissolved unreacted phthalates.
Having been dissolved by smaller molecules, and almost certainly accelerated
by osmotic pressure, some portion diffused back to the surface and was
dispersed in the gasoline. Based on our GCMS results to date there are some
other, presently unidentified, large molecules that were also leached out by
the ethanol and similarly transferred into the gasoline.This internal solution and diffusion back to the surface is the process of
leaching. Leaching by water is described in Rockett loc. cit. in connection
with blistering.Since they are in solution, the phthalates and the other heavy dissolved
molecules are able to pass through the fuel line filters. When the gasoline
with ethanol evaporates in the carburetor the heavy molecules do not
evaporate
but come out of solution and are carried along in the air-fuel mix as an
aerosol. When the droplets impinge on throttle plates and on the walls of
the
induction system they can collect as reported by Chuck Fort in Boat US and
others. We do not presently know if after impingement the films are
immobile
or if they are able to migrate through the induction system towards the
intake
valves. Some of the molecules that impinge on the hot valve stems and under
the crowns decompose to leave carbon powder and ash. Others, such as the
phthalates that in general have exceptional high temperature stability,
remain
intact or undergo only partial decomposition and then act as the binder that
holds together the carbon particles and ash as the observed, black sludge.Should you need to explore this type of failure we suggest you provide us
with
an intake valve having the sludge buildup and with a coupon cut from the
tank.
The coupon could be as small as a 1 inch diameter hole saw disk although we
would prefer a little larger. The hole saw needs to be degreased prior to
use
and both the coupon and the valve should be wrapped in a paper towel before
being put into a plastic bag so as to avoid transfer of the bag's surface
lubricant onto the samples. It would help if we could also receive
scrapings
from somewhere within the induction system, such as a throttle plate or
carburetor throat below the jets. Our chemists will section the coupon and
soak a segment in gasoline with 10% ethanol. Samples of the soaked fuel and
the as-received fuel will be taken down to dryness and the infrared spectra
will be compared with the spectra of the ethanol extract taken from a valve
and from within the induction system. As necessary, GCMS chromatograms,
will
also be compared. You will receive a report indicating what we found.
Since
the soaking takes a week, expect about a two week delay before you receive
results.Very truly yours
Frederick G. Hochgraf, PE Jeff
MasseSenior Scientist
ChemistNew Hampshire Materials Lab
(800) 334-5432
(603) 692-4008
lab@nhml.com
www.nhml.com
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